Brake cooling ducts

[Ludachris]

Those were likely done before they put the NACA ducts on.

 

[1LE]

FINALLY people are working on this.

Not sure about "finally"... My 2g has had some since '97-'98... I'd imagine that Road Race was doing it long before then.

Effectiveness is not what it should be, but it helps. You're right, there's no real good route to take. On mine there's small ram-air scoops where the foglights were and went nearly straight back until we had to make a 90 degree turn to throw air in the general vicinity of the brakes. Not able to dump right on them and the tubing is smaller than I'd like, but it's mostly straight, solid (custom carbon fiber pieces), and seems to get a good amount of air rammed into it. When combined with Porterfield R4-E brake pads, it's sufficient for my relatively low horsepower.

 

[cioc]

OK OK, I take back the Finally comment. I know people have attempted this in the past and I don't want to discount anyone's efforts. I REALLY needed to find a solution that fed the air directly into the rotor. I boil Motul in one 20 minute heat to the point where the pedal goes to the floor. I actually had to come in early last year on my last session of the day because it took 4-5 full pumps to get pressure back in the pedal. One thing I never understood, maybe some of you could shed some light on. Why would you want to make a shroud that consumes the entire inner rotor surface with a pipe fed through it at some point? Like the Porsche spindle mount that Kyle posted above? The vanes inside the rotor are designed to pull air through that entire surface and then you plug 75% of that with a shroud? I figured get the cold air as much into the center as possible and let the vanes pull additional air from the rest of the surface area? I'm probably wrong but would love to hear an explanation why. It may influence me doing additional work to my duct setup if I can be convinced.

The NACA duct on the RRE car is exactly what I'm doing. It's a perfect spot to feed the ducts.

 

[Ludachris]

As for the shroud - my thinking is that you're pushing air into the center of the rotor and the shroud keeps it in there and doesn't let it redirect and go back the other way. The air is then forced to exit only through the vents in the disk. I would bet that we'd lose a lot of the benefits if we didn't use a shroud.

 

[1LE]

I boil Motul in one 20 minute heat to the point where the pedal goes to the floor.

I've not been impressed with Motul. It must pick up water crazy fast. I boiled 1 week old Motul in my MR2 at an autox after getting a series of re-runs in quick succession. That's just plain ridiculous.

My only DSM related brake failure was (with ducts) on lap 2 (yes, my SECOND lap!) of a session at Putnam Park. Boiled the Motul (not sure how old, but probably older than it should have been, might have been a month or 2) and set the pads on fire (seizing the pistons in the calipers and melting the seals out as well). I blame that one on the pads not being up to par (Not sure on the brand anymore, that was a long time ago, I know I had some Carbotech Panthers at a different event that somehow as they heated up (at Nelson Ledges) would cause a tremendous vibration when braking, but I didn't boil the fluid (Syntec by then)).

Since switching to plain old Syntec brake fluid I've never boiled the fluid on the MR2 again. The Eclipse went to Syntec and Porterfield R4-E pads and has been fine. If I was still having problems, I'd switch to SRF. Everything I've heard about that is basically that even old it's better than brand-new anything. Of course, it had better be for the insane $ each bottle costs...

So... I hope you can come up with a killer brake ducting solution, but honestly you might want to try some different brake pads and fluids as well. They're (other than SRF) relatively cheap and easy to try out (and a lot less work). I know that even my brake ducts (relatively inefficient) if we block them up, you can feel noticably more heat coming off the wheels after a run at an autox. I've never blocked them at a road course because I like life (Brake pedal flat on the floor at 125mph coming into turn 1 at Putnam Park seriously changed how I look at these things now).

 

[mavisky]

I've heard that too about Motul, but then again any racing fluid will pick up water very quickly as they're extremely hydroscopic (sp?). It's often advised to bleed them before each event at the very least.

 

[GreenGSX]

I use aluminum dryer ducting and a handful of zip ties for my brake cooling ducts. They are tuff enough to hold up to multipul days at the track, cool very well, and cost less then $20 for both sides. They will rub and get torn up at full lock but I just take care getting in and out of the paddack and if I need to be at full lock on the track I more to worry about then $20 worth of ducting. They only take me about 15 minutes to install so I just wait until I'm at the track to put them on. Keep in mind I use a Baer track kit and I don't use the back plates. Here are some pictures.

 

[cioc]

Green GSX, your wheel well routing is exactly how mine is positioned. In the third picture down, that last zip tie is where our setups differ, because that's exactly where my wheel will rub. From where the circular boss is on the trans, I go up, flatten the hose to fit between the trans and frame rail, then rotate back into the fender where the NACA duct will feed it. Your dryer vent is also much larger diameter (or so it looks) which makes things even tighter. My goal is to make something permanent that will not rub. I hope to have solved the rub with a smaller diameter hose but whether or not it holds up is still a mystery.

Back on the shroud issue, when the rotors are at speed, the vanes create one hell of a suction (I'm assuming). If I'm feeding the rotor like this:

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I cannot imagine any air escaping. I had to take some more pictures just so you could get a rough idea.

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This was the third template I created. The final was much closer to the net shape and contours the pipe much better for welding. After tack welding, I'm going to have to message things a bit to get it perfect. Once that's done and the circular weld is complete, I'm going to add a small triangular brace perpendicular to the tube and bracket.

 

[90laserRSfwd]

(1le) what fluid are you running in the car (eclipse) now? still the syntec? I haven't had any problems with fluid (I don't think anyway). I switch out between ATE blue (some call it super blue) and Motul rbf 600. Pictures look good. I don't know about the vents in the sides of the fenders, looks like it would work out well. I'm wondering though if you would see significantly more air flow though by putting the inlet on the front of the car? anyone got a spare boost gauge to check?

 

[cioc]

The optimal location would definitely be in the front of the car. I saw this picture:

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And decided to do some photoshopping to get here:

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But at the end of the day I didn't like the way it looked and figured if the side inlets were good enough for the RRE car, it'd be good enough for me. By the way, my center bumper between the headlights is not cut out...just brainstorming.

And as for the boost gauge, I highly doubt anything would register. An anemometer maybe.

 

[1LE]

(1le) what fluid are you running in the car (eclipse) now? still the syntec?

Yep, still Syntec, right off the bargain shelf at my local auto parts place! Has a surprisingly good dry boiling point and doesn't seem to pick up water much at all/degrade over time.

 

[mavisky]

Interesting positioning of those vents on that evo. I think I'll still stick to side or front inlets.

Went looking for 2.5" tubing and found none. Ended up settling on the same 3" diameter hose that greengsx is using. Given that I could be running something 1/2 smaller to give me more space to work with this first layout test went pretty well and it wouldn't take much to make this permanent. I believe that the best way to duct these will be with a backing plate for the rotor and a piece of piping that will wrap up and infront of where the shocks mount. I've positioned the hose where they would be assuming you had those plates already made.

Driver's side - setup for bumper naca duct although I could route it all the way to the front bumper

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Passenger side setup. Tried to tuck it up above the trans, may be easier to do as others have and go below it though.

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[90laserRSfwd]

long route intercooler piping?

 

[mavisky]

long route intercooler piping?

Sort of, 3 sidemounts welded together and fed like the old RRE Griffin IC core. Here's an old pic when I was getting it mounted up.

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[cioc]

You got it Kyle! that's exactly how I did my passenger side as well! One trick I also learned from surfing the web some time ago. If you get the clear NACA duct, throw it on a photo copier, yes a photo copier. Then cutout the profile and voila, a template to cut your bumper. I'm going to try and cut the factory dust shields for the trans as well to hold the ductwork in place. I'm still on the fence with the shroud but it would be fairly easy to retrofit later. How much clearance do you think is necessary? In other words, from the picture I posted where the pipe actually goes into the rotor, right now theres only millimeters. I would presume that the rotor will flex a tad and having a rigid 321 stainless pipe come in contact with that surface is not a good thing, especially at speed in a turn. Anyone know how much a rotor can deflect under cornering?

 

[mavisky]

I would think that 1mm worth of clearance between the backing plate and the inner edge of the rotor should be sufficient. I'm not sure how much of one I'll be able to make given that I'm on the stock rotors still, I'll try to take a look at that this weekend. You can see in both photos where the 275's still rub the frame at full lock. I'm thinking about adding some 5mm wheel spacers to get a little more clearance and a little more track in the front end. With the camber I run it still easily clears the fenders and it'd give me some more room for the ducting as well.

 

[tsiboosted]

Cioc - I saw those inlets for the EVO's and wondered if they would work on a 2G DSM. But I would hate to sepnd the money and then they not work. Working on a budget here for the off-season Would be evry kewl if they did work though. I would not mind the looks of it so much if the functionality of it worked good enough, I would be satisfied.

Nice job Kyle. I have a lot of work to do this summer to try and fab up my own ducting on the car. All the pictures everyone has posted up of different setups is really going to help out. I will see what I can come up with later down the line.

On another note, I run the ATE (super) Blue brake fluid and never have had an issue with it boilng on me. Now I do bleed it every event and change it ever 2 events, so that may have something to do with it. But for me, it has never giving an issue on the track.

 

[GreenGSX]

On another note, I run the ATE (super) Blue brake fluid and never have had an issue with it boilng on me. Now I do bleed it every event and change it ever 2 events, so that may have something to do with it. But for me, it has never giving an issue on the track.

I run the ATE as well. Its cheap and easy to find for me and I've never had a problem with it boiling even when the dust boots are melting. I change my brake fluid once a season and bleed it before every event.

 

[bane3d]

What would prevent us from welding new brackets to the assembly to move the calipers from the front of the rotor to the back? Then we could easily fabricate a shroud around the back and with ducting, force air into the whole assembly? Would the worry be that with the amount of force, the welds would not hold up? Perhaps fabricating the whole thing and then finding a vendor to recast the assembly for a rear mounted caliper? I'm just thinking out loud and please let me know right away if this is not feasible.

d

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I run the ATE as well. Its cheap and easy to find for me and I've never had a problem with it boiling even when the dust boots are melting. I change my brake fluid once a season and bleed it before every event.

I also use super blue!!!

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I have tried to rig up some brake cooling, but there really is not enough room to make it look good, and to where it should not come apart easily. I want to drive my car to the track, beat the living snot out of it, and drive it home without having to fix ANYTHING.

TCE 13inch x 1.25in. should keep cool without ducting....I hope.

 

[cioc]

"What would prevent us from welding new brackets to the assembly to move the calipers from the front of the rotor to the back?"

I think most of us would consider this brake duct project more of a budget mod. While moving the calipers to the rear of the rotor may help with our limited real estate issue, it would be more difficult than some of the options being presented...and way more costly.

Looks like I'll be moving to ATE this season. I went as far as purchasing the titanium pad backing plates to try and insulate the heat but it's still transferring pretty bad.

tsiboosted - I don't see why they wouldn't work on a 2g. I spoke with that evo guy and he made those NACA ducts from the ones listed here. A little heat and a pipe and you could form it to your bumper.

mavisky - I always thought spacers were a BIG no no for what we do.

 

[tsiboosted]

"What would prevent us from welding new brackets to the assembly to move the calipers from the front of the rotor to the back?"

I think most of us would consider this brake duct project more of a budget mod. While moving the calipers to the rear of the rotor may help with our limited real estate issue, it would be more difficult than some of the options being presented...and way more costly.

Looks like I'll be moving to ATE this season. I went as far as purchasing the titanium pad backing plates to try and insulate the heat but it's still transferring pretty bad.

tsiboosted - I don't see why they wouldn't work on a 2g. I spoke with that evo guy and he made those NACA ducts from the ones listed here. A little heat and a pipe and you could form it to your bumper.

mavisky - I always thought spacers were a BIG no no for what we do.

I was thinking along those lines as well. Maybe something to try in off-season with everything else I will have going on. Car will be in 1,000 peices, good of time as any to try different things.

 

[cioc]

If finding a pickup location proves too difficult, there's always this option.

Big Picture: Cool Shirt In-Line Blower Fan, 135 CFM, 3" Diameter

 

[mavisky]

Just got this in the old inbox today.

Kyle,

We are always looking to add more products to our line. So of course we
would be interested in looking at producing a cooling duct for the DMS
family of cars. We would however need access to a front spindle assembly
before we could start design. If you have a spare assembly or know of
someone that does that can ship one to us we would be happy to take a look
at it.

Thanks for the email,

Jon Lambert

 

[tsiboosted]

Just got this in the old inbox today.

Kewl Kyle. So you have the extra one laying around for them to use? If not, someone needs to send them one so they can fab something up for our cars.