Battery Discharge Issues

[spyderdrifter]

So back in November, I had to replace my battery since it kept discharging over a few hours and over night. I knew I didn't have any parasitic draws, or leave my lights on, etc.... I fought with Advance Auto to honor my battery's warranty since I hadn't even had it a full year, I think it was right around 8 months. So after arguing about it, I got a new replacement. Yesterday, my spyder didn't start and had my girlfriend jump my car since I don't have a jump box. Drove around for a while to charge it up. Again this morning no start, until the 5th try. Drove about 10 miles before going to work. Car sat for 8 hours at there and I came back to go home, again wouldn't start until after several tries. So went back to the same store and had it tested. The CCAs were sitting in the 220 zone out of 450. Everything else was good. What could cause the CCAs to drop like that?

 

[boostneverlies]

You have a parasitic draw or else you would not have battery draining issues.

I had a draining issue once and it turned out to be the ECU. It was not shutting off the MPI relay. It was only shutting off one of the coils.

 

[Cox Abele]

No results yet?! I'm beginning to think you never did a draw test.

 

[spyderdrifter]

You know, I did say I was done with this post. I told you all the info I had, such as the parasitic draw test was good, and there were no parasitic draws like I said before. I have unsubscribed from this and have not been notified of comments and likewise will not look after this one. I replaced the battery since I had been wanting to anyway. The problem is resolved and that is all.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Just a bad battery. GLad its fixed.

 

[Cox Abele]

Zero milliamp draw when testing means you've performed the test wrong. There will ALWAYS be a draw due to factory components requiring power to hold memory.

You asked for help. People offered help. Now you have an attitude when someone calls you out for doing something wrong. Good luck with your new battery.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Yes, i asked for help. No, I didn't do the test wrong since I didn't do the test. The test was performed, as I've said a few times already, by the person a the parts store during the battery test. I never said there was ZERO draw. I know most vehicles have 30ish milliamps of draw when the system functions properly. I have he test results, and I choose not to post them as that wasn't relevant to the question I asked in the very first post and subsequent posts since. So if you think I have an attitude, you're right, I do. But it's a valid attitude toward all the unrelated posts thrown here that had nothing to do with the info I requested, which was: what can cause low CCAs when the battery voltage is still over 11.6 volts. I wasn't asking about milliamp readings, or parasitic draw tests. Yes that info is helpful when needed, but it didn't relate to what I wanted. I had full knowledge of needing a new battery, but had to wait til I got paid. I was simply searching for what I asked, not everything else.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

GLad it was just a battery.....I hate it when its just the simple stuff.

 

[Cox Abele]

...There are NO parasitic draws and the tester verified that in addition to my new alternator working properly.

I never said there was ZERO draw.

Done.

 

[spyderdrifter]

Spyderdrifter needs to chance his tampon. That's the attitude of a woman on her rag, not a man trying to fix his car's problem.

Why is it all of you persist in trying to pass me off. You and Cox Abele have NOT helped in any way, and you're just inserting your own worthless 2 cents where it isn't needed. Keep your negative comments to yourself, that's not what this forum is about. Maybe if you read the entire thing you'd realize that my attitude is justified by the amount of bullshit posts posted here including this one where I keep needing to explain things to those of you that can not comprehend what the original question was even though I made it absolutely clear SEVERAL times. The issue has been resolved and also made clear, so quit posting. I don't need your bullshit, nor does it need to be spread across the forum.... hopefully one of the moderators sees this and deletes this entire issue. Maybe you both should read where it says "Be friendly and Respectful before you post your crap.

 

[Lazy]

Glad to see that the whole issue was just something as simple as a bad battery! Thanks for coming back and updating your thread so that others might be able to learn from it.

 

[spyderdrifter]

No problem. Thanks.

 

[Cox Abele]

Let's review...

Your car had a discharging issue as you'd stated in your very first post. Your replaced your first dead battery (in March) with one that lasts 8 months. In November, the first replacement is testing bad. You argue with the warranty provider and receive another battery. The second replacement lasts another ~7 months, failing in May.

In roughly 15 months, you'd had three batteries fail; the original, the replacement and the warranty replacement.

You start a thread asking what what could cause your amperage to drop. People provided suggestions. You argued with them. People questioned your methods. You argued with them. People asked for results. You lied AND argued with them.

Clearly something has caused three batteries to fail in roughly 15 months. Now you have a new battery to address your non-starting issue, but haven't properly addressed why the previous three failed.

Here's the science...

Deep cycling a battery, which for you non-degree having folks, is considered drawing power out of a battery and recharging it. With a parasitic draw, each time the car is parked, the draw persists and consumes some of the batteries charge. Starting it again, the alternator recharges. This is one of many deep cycles experienced over the course of the life of a parasite.

A fully charged battery has positive plates, made of lead peroxide. Negative plates are made of sponge lead. As the battery discharges, oxygen (O2) molecules in the lead peroxide, are displaced by the sulfur (SO4) from the sulfuric acid. Sulfur converts the plates to lead sulfate (PbSO4) and the oxygen combines with the acid to form water (H20). When this occurs the battery is discharged and no longer produces the needed electricity.

Recharging the battery immediately after discharge reverses the process. Allowing a battery to remain discharged, even for a short period will shorten the life considerably. Sulfates on the lead plates become extremely difficult to remove if allowed to remain in place. If not removed, they insulate the lead from the acid and the battery loses capacity.

A common cause of battery failure is acid stratification. The electrolyte on a stratified battery concentrates on the bottom, causing the upper half of the cell to be acid poor. This effect is similar to a cup of coffee in which the sugar collects on the bottom when the waitress forgets to bring the stirring spoon. Batteries tend to stratify if kept at low charge (below 80%) and never have the opportunity to receive a full charge. Short distance driving while running windshield wiper and electric heaters contributes to this. Acid stratification reduces the overall performance of the battery.

Figure 1 illustrates a normal battery in which the acid is equally distributed form top to bottom. This battery provides good performance because the correct acid concentration surrounds the plates. Figure 2 shows a stratified battery in which the acid concentration is light on top and heavy on the bottom. A light acid limits plate activation, promotes corrosion and reduces performance. High acid concentration on the bottom, on the other hand, artificially raises the open circuit voltage. The battery appears fully charged but provides a low CCA. High acid concentration also promotes sulfation and decreases the already low conductivity further. If unchecked, such a condition will eventually lead to battery failure.

Figure 1: Normal battery
The acid is equally distributed from the top to the bottom in the cell and provides maximum CCA and capacity.

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Figure 2: Stratified battery
The acid concentration is light on top and heavy on the bottom. High acid concentration artificially raises the open circuit voltage. The battery appears fully charged but has a low CCA. Excessive acid concentration induces sulfation on the lower half of the plates.

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What you should have learned...

What you should have taken away from these two articles is that a stratified battery will cause normal voltage and sub-par amperage. Stratification is caused by the discharge of the battery. In a key-off situation, with a higher-than-normal amperage draw (a parasite), you are discharging the battery in an unacceptable manner. The discharge is allowing corrosion to build on the plates more rapidly than normal. While the discharge is only a little at a time, over months of allowing this to persist, the ability of the alternator to blast the corrosion off the plates dwindles. The acid becomes stratified and you are left with the undesired results of normal voltage with unacceptable amperage.

Why you should STFU and accept our advice...

Now, since you have made it absolutely clear (several times) that you'd like to know what is causing your normal voltage and low amperage, why haven't you taken our advice? Our persistence is only due to your stubbornness. Three batteries have failed on you in fifteen months. You haven't taken any action into your own hands to address the real issue, accept the fact that you are wrong (it's laughable actually), and take the advice you are being given. Instead, you argue and lie; refusing help when it's being crammed so far down your throat that you get butt hurt.

What you should do...

Now, go perform a parasitic draw test properly. Here's the most common method:

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When you finish the test, post the results along with a publicly apology to each member who offered advice that you refused, for your condescension and for your arrogance.

 

[spyderdrifter]

You know what, get off this thread!!! I haven't argued with anything other than asking a simple damn question. What did I lie about? Where the hell did you get three batteries from? There's only been two. You want more pointless information?

They were cheap ass batteries from Advance Auto, and my distance from home to work is quite short. Those are the reasons my batteries failed, which I already knew. Which is ALSO NOT what I was asking....

 

[Cox Abele]

Clearly you didn't read my post. I answered your question 100%. I even underlined it for you. I also provided you with the ability to remedy the issue beyond installing another battery destined for failure. I broke down piece by piece what is happening on the chemical level causing your batteries to fail and why your car is at fault rather than the odds of 3 different batteries failing over the course of 15 months. There is a very good reason why the battery supplier argued over the warranty replacement. They conceded not because you were right, but because they were tired of dealing with you and your inability to accept the fact that your car is the reason you've been consuming batteries.

Where did I get three batteries? I entirely gathered the information from your first post.
BATTERY #1You car came with one. You can't say it didn't.
BATTERY #2You replaced that original one in November 2013.
BATTERY #3The November battery lasted 8 months, you warrantied it out in May.

What did you lie about? I quoted (in post #33) where you said the following:

...There are NO parasitic draws and the tester verified that in addition to my new alternator working properly.

I never said there was ZERO draw.

The batteries are not the problem. Your piece of shit car and matching piss poor attitude is the problem.

Go do a parasitic draw test, as I and others told you to do plenty of times. Just because your new battery starts the car now doesn't mean it will continue to do so until you address the actual issue of what is causing your problem. I clearly defined what causes the normal voltage and low amperage in my previous post. I gave you advice on how to address the issue head on. If you can't take quality advice, leave the forum and put some money away each day for your next battery purchase since it's months away.


Here is the challenge I present to you!


I'll paypal you $100 right now if you go get a DVOM meter, video record and post it here how you have perform the amp draw test properly and can prove that with the key-off you are only seeing between 10-50ma draw. In the video, you'll need to show the following to receive your $100:

A.) A sign with your screen name and todays date
B.) The DVOM leads connected between the battery post , DVOM and the battery cable.
C.) The current amperage draw AND what setting you have the meter set to
D.) Both fuse boxes with all fuses in their appropriate locations.
E.) With the DVOM in place, pull the room lamp fuse and show the mA results

$100 is more than half of what your new battery will cost in 8 months. Prove me wrong!

P.S. I'm so confident that you [both] have a draw and that you are too conceded to perform the challenge that I know my money is safe.

 

[spyderdrifter]

1. I'm done with this entire forum after this,
2. There were ONLY two battery failures in which I mentioned. The original battery got replaced because it and the car sat for a year torn apart and I bought a cheap ass battery. They did not refuse my warranty. The warrantied the original battery I ought from them and not the last one because it was already the replacement. Fair enough and I bought a better quality battery.
3. There was no lieing about parasitic draws. I know full well there's a natural draw for the memory settings and so forth. You misunderstood what I meant by no draws. It was meant that there are no draws beyond the normal specs.
4. I don't need your money and have a very good DVOM. As you missed me saying already, I didn't perform the draw test. It was done with the battery test performed by the guy at the store.
5. Why are you persisting in this argument when it stated the problem has been resolved, the cause is known, and there's nothing more to say... do us all a favor and quite throwing more fuel into the fire. I don't want to be posting here, and you shouldn't either. Enough has been said.

 

[Cox Abele]

You have 24 hours to earn $100, to prove me wrong, and to put that degree and DVOM to good use. Why not take that opportunity?

For what it's worth, the amp probe on the side of the ARBS tester Advance used to test your charging and electrical system isn't capable of sensing milliamps or doing a proper parasitic draw test. The amp probe will only test amps, it doesn't have the sensitivity to test lower, and that's assuming the employee is using it properly in the first place. Your nice DVOM however, likely can test mA when used appropriately, but that's only if your degree'd brain knows how to use it properly in the first place.

I am persisting because your problem has not been solved. You have cured the symptoms, but have not solved the problem. Say you get a nail in a tire and it goes flat. You fill it with air and have alleviated the symptom of the nail. It's still leaking and will go flat again. Only when you remove the nail and repair the hole will you have a solution to the flat tire.

Stop being such bi*** and go do the test if you are so incredibly confident you are right and that you have no abnormal draws. Stop assuming you've fallen victim to some greedy cooperation trying to hock poor quality parts.

What brand of battery did you install that is superior?

 

[snowborder714]

Closed per OP request.