Archer Bros. Racing Talon Resurrection

[prostreetdsmx1]

wow i remember the name Phil Beers too. Talk about back in the day. Glad to see an OG back in the mix.

I know what you mean about CCW. Their wheels are simply beautiful but boy do you have to pay to play with those bad boys.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

I would like to hear your answer on that one too Kyle. I have a set of 16" wheels sitting around that I want to use for my race wheels. What size tires are the widest I can put on there with no flaring of the fenders? Can I get 245 / 30 / 16 on there? Maybe 245 / 40 / 16? Or what would you recomend for those wheels? Thanks Kyle.

~Eddie

Why the hesitation to roll the fenders? A heat gun and 2 hours with a roller and you are good to go. We do it on nearly a daily basis here with the EVOs and 240s.

what is the width of the wheel?

 

[4G63FLA]

Why the hesitation to roll the fenders? A heat gun and 2 hours with a roller and you are good to go. We do it on nearly a daily basis here with the EVOs and 240s.

what is the width of the wheel?

Thanks. Is there any How To's on flaring the fenders that are good ones? Also, I believe the wheels are only 7" wide. I would have to double check that one. I know the street tires on there now are 205 / 55 / 16. I know a wider tire will fit on there. Now I have 245 / 40 / 18's on there now. I just want to make sure which tire I can actually fit on there before I purchase them you know?

~Eddie

 

[mavisky]

The 17x9 is a popular road racing wheel and a good number of guys are running around with 245/40-17's mounted on some +24 offset mustang wheels. Not the lightest, not the strongest, but the fit the budget minded racer well. I believe they take a little work on the inner lip, but nothing too major.

I've also seen 245/45-16's on 8" wide wheels on a stock fendered 1g fwd before here at work, no idea what offset he had on the Mille Miglia's he was running at the time though.

Of course with anything much over 225 width you're going to probably need to switch off of the stock diameter springs and into a coilover of some nature. That's the reason I'm still on my puny 205's at the moment.

 

[Phil1320]

I have been running 225 width tires for years even when I had the AGXs before the coilovers. As light as my car is I don't want to go too wide as I think it is not neccessary.
I would gladly run a 16 X 8 but everyone tells me that tire availability for 17" is much better. I have no problem rolling my fenders if need be but as far as cutting my rear fender edge off entirely to accomodate rivet on flares or something like G. Colliers ride, I'm not ready to do that to my Talon, the car is still way too clean and original for that. I would literally buy another talon shell instead. It seems in 17 X 8 the regular offset for our cars(mainly only listed for 2g, not 1g?)is 35. There is also offsets of 40, 42, and 43 available but I wonder how far that would push the wheel in??? I know that especially with the AWD the idea is to widen the front track in order to get the car to rotate. CCW spoke that even an increase in diameter to say 17 over 16 is not as imperative as the cars need to be muscled around anyway. CCW's final recommendation was like I said 17 X 9 with front wheel spacers, longer studs, etc. I think I will run 16 X 8 with some RA1's or 17 X 8 with NT01's or something like that. If I could get some offset input for 17 X 8 that would help. I'm gathering that most run ET 35 not ET43.


Phil

 

[4G63FLA]

I can understand you not wanting to roll your fenders or flare them out just yet to keep it looking clean as it is. I have thought about getting some other fenders to flare out so I can have them done without having the car down at all by taking the stock fenders off. I really have until April to see what the biggest tire I can fit under the stock fenders anyway. Most of my racing will be Autocross and Solo II events, but in April we are going to Road Atlanta and I want the most rubber I can fit under there you know? Thanks for the input guys.

~Eddie

 

[Ludachris]

Wow, hey Phil. Haven't seen you posting in quite a while. Good to see you back and more importantly, great to see you getting the car ready for the road course.

I'm getting ready to put on the 17x9 Team Dynamics wheels I just bought through Mitch at Engintecs. I don't have tires yet so I haven't tried test fitting but there's a slight chance they might fit with fender rolling since they're the perfect offset for our cars (27mm). If you don't want to worry about fender rolling or possibly having to use flares, I'd suggest sticking with 17x8. The only issue becomes having to settle for an offset that isn't perfect for our cars and you likely won't get the same level of grip as your competition. It's just a matter of where you want to compromise - keep it looking factory or have better performance.

Glad to see another long time DSMer getting into some wheel-turning action instead of the same old straight line stuff

 

[Phil1320]

wow i remember the name Phil Beers too. Talk about back in the day. Glad to see an OG back in the mix.

I know what you mean about CCW. Their wheels are simply beautiful but boy do you have to pay to play with those bad boys.

Thanks...good to be back!

I really...REALLY like the CCW stuff, and to listen to John talk about the days when he was working with the 1G talons was inspiring to say the least, he did say the max he ran on those cars was 9.5" wide.........Greg C. comes to mind! Anyway, had a tour of the shop and saw the processes in motion. Also saw the new wheel style which is a 10 or so spoke 3 piece. I would choose that or the Classic mesh 3 piece. I've looked into everything as far as wheels, Forgeline dropped the RS right before I started looking and their new ZX3-R is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY too expensive even in 17 X 8 they want stupid money, as does Kinesis and as far as HRE, to me they are show wheels, and that's it. So, when the time comes it will Definitely be CCW for me. I actually had a set of Bogart 16 X 8 mesh wheels that came off of Sean Glazar's(Extreme Mot.)drag race talon. They were three piece mesh...apparently Sean must have "stress" cracked all of them because I ended up having the front left wheel center separate from the rim outer when it broke and I went off the road up a curb after dropping my left front rotor on the ground!!! The mesh spokes on the 16" were very small, maybe only a 1/4 inch thick. A friend of mine ran the same wheel in 17" where the thickness was greater and he never had problems at all running them on the street. Unfortunately, I had no recourse as Bogart stated the wheels were not DOT legal , my bad I guess. 1/2 hour before this happend I was ripping down the drag strip..then what? So, there's some more wheel talk.....


Phil

 

[mavisky]

Hre are not much different than I-Forged. Blingy, racey looking, show wheels.

If you want strong racing wheels and money is no concern: Volk, CCW, SSR, Team Dynamics, Forgeline, and Kinesis make the best IMHO.

 

[Phil1320]

Wow, hey Phil. Haven't seen you posting in quite a while. Good to see you back and more importantly, great to see you getting the car ready for the road course.

I'm getting ready to put on the 17x9 Team Dynamics wheels I just bought through Mitch at Engintecs. I don't have tires yet so I haven't tried test fitting but there's a slight chance they might fit with fender rolling since they're the perfect offset for our cars (27mm). If you don't want to worry about fender rolling or possibly having to use flares, I'd suggest sticking with 17x8. The only issue becomes having to settle for an offset that isn't perfect for our cars and you likely won't get the same level of grip as your competition. It's just a matter of where you want to compromise - keep it looking factory or have better performance.

Glad to see another long time DSMer getting into some wheel-turning action instead of the same old straight line stuff

Hey! Thanks! It has been a while. Glad all you guys are still around as well. SO, 17 X 9 for you huh?! Nice. As a matter of fact I have looked into the Team Dynamics and they are definitely nice wheels. Yeah, it seems there is no correct offset in the 17 X 8......I don't know, at this point I might just throw some RA1's on my CP-035 Racing Harts(16 X 7)for now and just go rip it. Like I said elswhere total weight with me won't be more than 2650 lbs. and that's without the lightweight doors, so I should do ok. Obviously, I would like the wider stuff and looked into flares from the Z store that I saw someone had here on the forums with 9" wheels, but it seems that noone has an exact recipe yet as far as offset and whatnot. Maybe I'm wrong. So, you say 9" with 27mm offset for your car and that you are adding flares, or just rolling?

Thanks for posting....

Phil

 

[Phil1320]

Hre are not much different than I-Forged. Blingy, racey looking, show wheels.

If you want strong racing wheels and money is no concern: Volk, CCW, SSR, Team Dynamics, Forgeline, and Kinesis make the best IMHO.

Don't forget Racing Hart! If I could buy another set of CP's I would but they are really not around and of course not in 9" width. I have Gram Light 57F on my EVO in 17 X 8.5 with a +30 offset and they weigh in at 14lbs. even. I love those wheels!

Well, who knows, I'm all mixed up now. Basically, if I knew exactly what wheel would work such as the Team Dynamics that Luda speaks of, I would roll, add flares, whatever.


Phil

 

[mavisky]

Obviously, I would like the wider stuff and looked into flares from the Z store that I saw someone had here on the forums with 9" wheels, but it seems that noone has an exact recipe yet as far as offset and whatnot. Maybe I'm wrong. So, you say 9" with 27mm offset for your car and that you are adding flares, or just rolling?

Thanks for posting....

Phil

I'm actually looking into the z flares + some 17x9 or 17x10 wheels underneath them, but that's a severe setup. I'm still waiting to find the cash to get it done though

 

[94TSiAWD]

Well, the car should be finally back out this year to take the record back again which is currently at 11.64.

Good to see you back around Phil. You were the original 14b guy. Hopefully you beat that 11.64 by less than 8 tenths! Try to keep the mph under say, 126 mph on the 14b as well.

Good luck!

 

[Phil1320]

Good to see you back around Phil. You were the original 14b guy. Hopefully you beat that 11.64 by less than 8 tenths! Try to keep the mph under say, 126 mph on the 14b as well.

Good luck!

Ya know!!! I thought about that post after I wrote it!! It's clear that you and the Laser are in a class all by yourselves when it comes to the 14b........I am speaking of the 14b AWD record as it stands. I won't come anywhere near your times no matter what I do!!! I do think I can beat Nates nitro run though in due time.... Anyway, we will see what happens.....I think my combo has a best case scenerio of 11.3-11.4@115-117 or so, but I have never spat off any times before running so that is really my imagination talking

Thanks for the luck though...it always comes in handy!

Phil

ps---for comparisons sake----your total race weight on 10.8@126 pass???

 

[94TSiAWD]

Race weight on the car is 2240. That's pretty light, but still 240 lbs over "Class" weight. Also, throw those numbers in a HP calc if you get a chance. It's decent power.

Maybe you will inspire Leon to put together a 14b setup and challenge you again. You guys should run heads up! That would be cool.

Beating Nates nitrous times would be an accomplishment. Good luck with it!

 

[Phil1320]

Race weight on the car is 2240. That's pretty light, but still 240 lbs over "Class" weight. Also, throw those numbers in a HP calc if you get a chance. It's decent power.

Maybe you will inspire Leon to put together a 14b setup and challenge you again. You guys should run heads up! That would be cool.

Beating Nates nitrous times would be an accomplishment. Good luck with it!

2240...wow......I would think my lightest race weight will come in at around 2440. Unless, I decide to take the car off the street entirely and then there is more weight to be lost, but not too much more. I still have door glass and windsheild along with stock gas tank and such. Inspire Leon....maybe.....but, I think he sold his AWD as a rolling chassis, and, yes, heads up would be cool, either he doesn't use studderbox or I have to let my computer launch for me too

Keep in mind that my engine is still 100% original 80,600 miles, original head gasket, balance shafts still there, the whole 9. I made a deal with myself, number 1--not going to build a motor around a small turbo like the 14b, and won't mess with the motor ever until something gives, although, the last time the exhaust manifold was off it was easy to see how dirty the head and bottom of valves were, definitely costing me some flow.

As far as Nate's nitrous runs.....not sure if you know, but I know what type of shot he was running...mathematically if I were to run the same amount on my car as it was two years ago...my car runs 11.0@121. In other words his car went on the bottle, but off the bottle it wasn't so quick, I know he had another motor built to run the 14b, but something happend to it and I think that was it. I just think I should set my sights high, that's all. Truthfully, if all goes right for me, you, Nate, and Leon have the only times that I feel will take some serious effort to ECLIPSE, haha. One last thing, my driving style will also be able to change somewhat as I will be able to trailer the car to the track this year. The night I was able to edge Leon's 12.053 with a 12.052 and then back it up with a 12.02, I drove to the strip by myself 100 miles, made five passes, and drove home 100 miles. The strip even picked my car as one of their favorite cars of the night and interviewed me in the tower, was a great night for me and that night I met my goal, finally. Too bad noone was there to share it with me, but, that was it, Sept. 4, 2002 at 9:12 pm with the back up pass at 9:43. Noone wanted to go to the strip that night either. SO, it is what it is, I would expect that someone will always come back and beat my time, but, like I said, I met my goal when I beat Leon years ago.....not to mention I was chasing Marc Hallman's 12.57@109 way back when and was still behind the late Jeff Carpenter when he was at 12.27@109 and Greg Horn was at 12.40@110, both of them helped me get where I am now, or was , now I think I'm tenth all time and that ain't cuttin it. This will be my last shot though as I want to hit the road courses to improve upon other aspects of driving as this particular forum is all about. We shall see.



Phil1320

 

[94TSiAWD]

I can tell you this about the nitrous. I did not go any faster on a 100 shot than on a 60 shot with the 14b and 6cm housing. I think the housing was too much of a restriction.

Good luck with what you're doing Phil! I'll be keeping an eye on ya.

 

[Phil1320]

I can tell you this about the nitrous. I did not go any faster on a 100 shot than on a 60 shot with the 14b and 6cm housing. I think the housing was too much of a restriction.

Good luck with what you're doing Phil! I'll be keeping an eye on ya.

I believe you on that.........I just know he picked up 1 full second in ET and 9mph. Just so you know, I will never run nitrous, it will always be just turbo power. So, wherever it ends, it ends. I think my next turbo will be the EVO 3 16G and that will be it as well, unless I run a BB turbo like the 3052 or 3044. I have no aspirations to run HUGE power. Just as I would never take the stocker turbo off my EVO. Every time I see my friends 3575 car go I think it's absolutely nuts(635 AWHP) but I just don't want that unreliable a combination. Not saying I won't build a motor someday, but I'll still run what are considered SMALL turbos by todays standards. I still have plenty of work to do on the car before its ready, and of course, dyno time. Thanks!

Phil

 

[Ludachris]

Hey Phil, there's a thread in this forum titled "Wheels for Road Racing" or something close to that. It was there that one of our members started talking with Team Dynamics to come up with the best possible offset for a 17x9 wheel for road racing a 1G. That's how 27mm was chosen. Team Dynamics actually made those wheels to our specs so they'll fit better than any other wheel on the market (that isn't custom made), plus they have a ton of clearance for a huge rotor/caliper and have a great brake cooling design. The only drawback? They're not very lightweight compared to the other wheels on the market. Mine weighed in at 23.8 lbs - quite a bit heavier than I had thought they were going to be. Oh well, they were in the neighborhood of $200 each (which was a LOT cheaper than any other custom wheel) and they've got a solid reputation in racing so I guess I'll live with the added weight. I'll probably pick up a second set of wheels later, probably some Enkei RPF-1's or some Kosei K1-TS in 17x9. I still don't know whether I'll need flares or not, as I still have to order my tires (going with 255 Toyo RA-1's). If I use another wheel I'm sure I'll probably need flares and maybe spacers for the calipers.

I was looking at the CCW's myself but couldn't swing the $2k+ price tag and still be able to buy tires.

 

[Phil1320]

Hey Phil, there's a thread in this forum titled "Wheels for Road Racing" or something close to that. It was there that one of our members started talking with Team Dynamics to come up with the best possible offset for a 17x9 wheel for road racing a 1G. That's how 27mm was chosen. Team Dynamics actually made those wheels to our specs so they'll fit better than any other wheel on the market (that isn't custom made), plus they have a ton of clearance for a huge rotor/caliper and have a great brake cooling design. The only drawback? They're not very lightweight compared to the other wheels on the market. Mine weighed in at 23.8 lbs - quite a bit heavier than I had thought they were going to be. Oh well, they were in the neighborhood of $200 each (which was a LOT cheaper than any other custom wheel) and they've got a solid reputation in racing so I guess I'll live with the added weight. I'll probably pick up a second set of wheels later, probably some Enkei RPF-1's or some Kosei K1-TS in 17x9. I still don't know whether I'll need flares or not, as I still have to order my tires (going with 255 Toyo RA-1's). If I use another wheel I'm sure I'll probably need flares and maybe spacers for the calipers.

I was looking at the CCW's myself but couldn't swing the $2k+ price tag and still be able to buy tires.

Thats great info right there...so on 9" 27mm is it. 23.8 lbs. though...hmmmm wow that means I'd be adding 13lbs. a corner back onto the car! But, also adding two inches in tread width. So, you got these at Engintecs? I looked on their site and saw the wheels on Greg's car...if that's the same wheel as yours, flaring is needed for sure. Is it the Pro Race 1? I just looked at Kosei K1 in just 17 X 7 and they weighed 14.1 or so. RPF1's in 17 X 8 were 15.5 lbs. I don't think the CCW's are SUPER light....17 X 9 I think was still in the 18 lb. range. I'm used to the Gram Light forged wheels on my EVO--17 X 8.5 and 14lbs. each!!!! Oh well......I don't know what I will do, I may just bump up to 17" and stick with 7" wide for now...I really don't know, I just want to hit the track, once I get settled I'll focus in on a crazy set up. But, I do like the Team Dynamics wheel in black of course

Phil1320

 

[Dauntless]

Archer Bros rally car for sale in San Francisco...just $8500.

craigslist online community

I am posting it here so I am not tempted to buy it...

Should be an easy convert to SCCA or NASA road racer.

Stan

PS - I am not connected in any way to this sale...just saw it on Craigslist.

 

[dieselsdad]

Anybody around still interested in this thread? I now have the 90' Thrifty Rental car from the Archer's that was talked about previously at my house. I plan on running it at Hallett this summer. I've known the previous owner for almost 20 years so I was familiar with the 33 car as well. Would like to get in touch with the owner of the 33 car as that car has some really nice features I would like to get pictures of.

Thanks,
Michael

 

[mschlanglv]

Just saw this here. If you guys need any help with the car, I have a pretty good resource. My father-in-law crewed for the Archer Bros in the early 90's and built many of the parts on the car. He is still in Duluth, MN and in contact with the other guys at the shop.

 

[schemauer]

Any help would be appreciated. I've been trying to collect any info I can on my '93 #33 car, including racing history and the HKS brochures and such that the car was in back then.

I've contacted Archer Bros, but they really haven't been able to help much with info on the car. From what I understand the car was built jointly by the factory and Archer from a new car or shell. I know the engine was assembled by Comptech, but don't know what type of modifications it had.

I've tried to locate Willy Lewis, the driver, but have just hit dead-ends.

I'd love to talk with your father-in-law; or even somehow reunite him with the car at some point to go over it and tell me more about it.

Michael - I'd love to get these two cars together on the track again, that would be awesome. Maybe we can come up with an event both of us can make?


Scott

 

[dieselsdad]

It would be great to see the cars on the track together. I too am interested in what mods if any were done to the engines and the electronics. It seems the Archer's might have had some "tricks" up their sleeves when it came to racing in these "stock" classes.