A summer of racing...my 2g Talon!

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

Man, if only we had the opportunity to do those kinds of races around where i live....

 

[snowborder714]

What happened with SPC controll arms? Guess they still hit?
I was talking to Mueller and trying to figure out, if I should put stiffer springs on my JIC's to stop the travel. I am very disapointed with PSC as a company, after so many years with problems with our cars they havent take the time to fix flaw in their desingn.
Here a couple pics of how bad is the hitting on my car.

-MSR

Damn, that's making me rethink wanting these. I'm only running Tein Flex coilovers [10kgf/mm front, 6kgf/mm rear (560 lbs/in, 340 lbs/in)] and definitely do not want that happening to my car.

 

[tsirider13]

My spring ratio front to rear is very close, If I up the front by 2kg I will do the same at the rear.
Mueller has stiffer springs for the JIC's in stock or at least has acces to them, so that would not be a problem, the problem is getting the springs from california to Toronto.

-MSR

 

[twicks69]

Hmmm, I have never seen this problem with mine at all, but I am a street car/drag car. I haven't put it on a road course.

I am running around a 550# spring up front and a 340# spring preloaded 675-700# spring in the rear for the last 3 years with no problems.

I will have to inspect the wheel wells when I am feeling better.

 

[tsiboosted]

WOW !!! That is not good there man. I dont understand if SPC knows of this issue, why they do not fix the design. I am hoping my new Ingalls camber kits do not give me this issue. Hopefully not but I have not heard any issues.

I dont see how stiffer springs is really a fix to this issue. As its not really a fix but more of a patch. You should not have to be forced to buy new springs just because there is a design flaw in their product. You get near the 700 lb spring rates, the ride is going to suffer allot.

Out of curiousity....Why did you just not go with a camber kit instead of the SPC control arm? I know it "seems" to be the better product but this thread is all eveidence to the contrary you know? Might have been better off with some new OEM arms and camber kits. Just my $0.02 on it man. I hope you get some answers and get this resolved.

 

[awdfun]

No worries on the hijackinig, I'm curious to see what others experiences are as well.

I've got the mullerized JIC's, so I don't know what the spring rate is in front (I purchased them used without any specs). I'm sure when I make the transition to dot R tires it will get worse. In the mean time I've thought about raising the front of the car in an attempt to get the shock to bottom before the arm hits the fender...or going back to my stock arms and getting a camber kit.

I went with the SPC's for the camber and caster adjustment. I really liked the difference the additional caster made, and I want to go farther with neg. camber and positive caster before I try modifying the stockers.

 

[asian312]

No worries on the hijackinig, I'm curious to see what others experiences are as well.

I've got the mullerized JIC's, so I don't know what the spring rate is in front (I purchased them used without any specs). I'm sure when I make the transition to dot R tires it will get worse. In the mean time I've thought about raising the front of the car in an attempt to get the shock to bottom before the arm hits the fender...or going back to my stock arms and getting a camber kit.

I went with the SPC's for the camber and caster adjustment. I really liked the difference the additional caster made, and I want to go farther with neg. camber and positive caster before I try modifying the stockers.

When you purchased the JICs did you specify what type of tires you were planning on running? One thing I've noticed as compared to most other Mullerized JIC's is that my springs are not the standard purple color. Not sure if that means they are a different spring rate, but the amount of abuse to my shock towers seems minimal in comparison and I don't think mine are much of an issue any longer since I've increased the ride height a bit.

Agree 100% about the caster, same reason I've not swapped back to stockers with a camber kit.

 

[tsiboosted]

How much negative front camber are you wanting to go with? If you go with much more than -3 degrees....You better be able to get that much positive camber when the suspension loads, body rolls and tire slip angle in the turns to properly heat the tires all the way across for good wear or you will be replacing allot of tires due to uneven wear on them.

More than anything it depends on the tire and what it wants. Also how hard you can push the tire, but not beyond its limits. Then how much camber gain/loss your cars suspension has. How much does the car roll. Racers with mad skillz can push a tire with -4 degrees camber and get even temps and wear. Just some thoughts for you man

 

[twicks69]

Hmmm, I have never seen this problem with mine at all, but I am a street car/drag car. I haven't put it on a road course.

I am running around a 550# spring up front and a 340# spring preloaded 675-700# spring in the rear for the last 3 years with no problems.

I will have to inspect the wheel wells when I am feeling better.

I went and checked out my car, and I do have damage from the upper control arms hitting the inner fender wall and putting in very slight gouges, as well as a VERY SMALL dent on each side that is visible in the engine bay similar to the damage in the photos in Post #20. It is very very small on my car, but I am also running my car pretty high off the ground (slightly lower than stock).

Funny enough, my upper ball joint boot spring didn't even stay on the part when I took them out of the box. Seriously disappointed with that part as well. Other than that, I have had the ability to adjust camber and caster without issues.

I did have the upper ball joint fully slide on its elongated groove (while fully tightened) on a very hard launch at the track. That scared the crap out of me.

ALWAYS USE Permatex Threadlocker RED on the adjustment nut after it is TIGHT.

As well, the locknuts that they use on the upper ball joint are crap. They have been replaced several times. The upper ball joint threads also did take a chunk out of the tread on my slick when it shifted camber on me.

The design really could be fixed.

Be sure to clearance your fender walls, or clearance the control arm BEFORE installation. Otherwise, it will clearance itself, and you won't like the outcomes as seen in this thread.


Darn, really a bummer that I noticed the damage.

I talked with Specialty Products at the PRI-Show this year and told them about the problems that I was having with my control arms and asked them if they were going to fix the design whatsoever, and they said no. They did tell me that they were willing to work with me, but it seems that they are trying to do too little, too late.

I guess I will be doing a bit more clearancing for prevention of future damages. Thankfully my ride height is fairly high, and damage is minimal in my case.

 

[tsiboosted]

I talked with Specialty Products at the PRI-Show this year and told them about the problems that I was having with my control arms and asked them if they were going to fix the design whatsoever, and they said no. They did tell me that they were willing to work with me, but it seems that they are trying to do too little, too late.

Thats great....They know there is a design flaw yet will do nothing to fix it. Nice.

 

[twicks69]

Thats great....They know there is a design flaw yet will do nothing to fix it. Nice.

Yeah, funny huh...

I notified Andrew Brilliant as well in his thread concerning these control arms as he just purchased them for his Time Attack buildup.

The details are on Post #35, Post #38 and Post #49:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/roa...3-time-attack-build-blog-2.html#post151768804

 

[tsiboosted]

Nice Tim...Better for people to know this flaw now and not on track you know? It looks like a good peice and the price is ok on it....However, this flaw is a MAJOR downfall of the product. Perhaps someone will come up with another solution on something like this. For now, I will stick with my Ingalls kits on new OEM arms.

 

[turbosax2]

Here is another option for more camber, but no caster adjustability:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...dd-more-adjustability-front-alignment-2g.html

The other option is to modify the stock UCA to get more caster, but it will be a fixed amount. I know Jtoby had done this but I can't find a thread where he mentioned it.

And for 97-99 cars, you can flip the bushing on the inboard end of the driver's side compression arm to get equal caster on both sides:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/handling-tech/176057-resolved-2g-caster-changing.html



Great info in here on the SPC arms. Maybe a mod could collect it all in a dedicated thread too?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

Can't believe I missed this!
Finally some guys who are talking about the SPC arms. As an added bonus we have guys talking about actually using them on the track and not just a weekend warrior type, like myself. I'm running the lowly Eibach Prokits ~ 330in/lbs springs and I too have the arms hitting in certain circumstances. But I certainly don't have any damage that is visible in the engine bay other than whats I've taken photos of in the link below. I've contacted SPC about the arms and they're very aware of the issue and have 4 methods to relieve the issue.
1. Higher spring rates
2. Larger bump stops
3. Use a ball peen hammer to "massage" the fender wells so that contact is not made at the current contact points.
4. Cut the affected area out

None of these are really that suitable but I like the arms enough to put up with it.

Here's my write up on these arms:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...d-aluminum-adjustable-upper-control-arms.html

Great info in here on the SPC arms. Maybe a mod could collect it all in a dedicated thread too?

Excellent idea.

EDIT: Also of excellence is the idea to use a zip tie in place of the retainer spring. I will no longer fight with that spring for 15min every time it slips off. My only concern is that the edges of a zip tie might be too sharp and might cause premature failure of the boot. I"m sure if a strong enough yet small enough zip tie was used it would be a non-issue.

 

[gixxerdrew]

Guys, this problem isnt the SPC arms, its normal for this suspension suspension. Same problem on stock upper arms. Your trying to lower your cars the improper method, bad stuff happens. You need to have drop spindles made or measure your maximum travel and make sure you have clearance and adjust your drop accordingly

 

[tsiboosted]

Drew - I would almost always agree with that statement...But SPC themselves have acknowledged the issue. So there must be some sort of issue there. Now myself I run Ingalls camber kits and OEM upper control arms and see nothing like the people on here that are talking about the SPC issues. But I run GC coilovers wtih 650 lbs in the front and 350 lbs in the rear. I may not be the best person to talk about it with those rates.

Now I am not syaing that there is not an issue with the way they have lowered their cars. But I would believe that if 1, 2 maybe even 3 people said it. But it seems to me that everyone (well not everyone) is having the same issue. And when the company admits it, it seems to me therer may be a legitimate issue here.

On a purpose built race car, I wouldnt see the issue of beating in the fender or whatever they say to do with them. But people that DD their cars, that doesnt seem like a suitable solution to the issue you know? Would just like to see some sort of resolution to the issue without having to beat your car in or cut some of it away. And I wouldnt like to have to cut away anywhere near where the top of my strut mounts. like I said, not saying you are wrong by any means. Just adding something to the debate is all.

 

[awdfun]

Honestly I don't really see it as a design flaw. Sure I have some "self clearancing" going on, but with the additional adjustment range (and decreasing lap times) capable with these arms, someone is bound to find the edge of adjustment - whether the arms themselves are the limit, or the wheel well, which ever way you opt to look at it.

Of course next time I'd actually set up the car for full travel without hitting hard stops (i.e. fender wells), but I knew of the issue and wanted to see what changes I could make after fully understanding the issue. And I'm stoked that this thread may actually be useful to the DSM crowd!

 

[tsiboosted]

Honestly I don't really see it as a design flaw. Sure I have some "self clearancing" going on, but with the additional adjustment range (and decreasing lap times) capable with these arms, someone is bound to find the edge of adjustment - whether the arms themselves are the limit, or the wheel well, which ever way you opt to look at it.

Of course next time I'd actually set up the car for full travel without hitting hard stops (i.e. fender wells), but I knew of the issue and wanted to see what changes I could make after fully understanding the issue. And I'm stoked that this thread may actually be useful to the DSM crowd!

Right on man....Sounds good. hopefully like you said, someone can come up with the correct positioning of everything to make them work properly.

 

[sjk9671]

Guys, this problem isnt the SPC arms, its normal for this suspension suspension. Same problem on stock upper arms. Your trying to lower your cars the improper method, bad stuff happens. You need to have drop spindles made or measure your maximum travel and make sure you have clearance and adjust your drop accordingly

I use to have this same problem with my Eibach pros with my factory A arms hitting the top when I compensated the camper for the drop. I wonder how you could go about making a drop spindle, because that would fix it for good? Seems like you would have to have CNC it out of steel or have it cast iron. Just my thoughts.

 

[gixxerdrew]

there are places that just fab them but its expensive probably more than some DSMers entire builds :-/

 

[sjk9671]

If I was gonna spend that much money, I would probably just redesign a new front suspension with lower tubular control arms. Something kinda like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[gixxerdrew]

If I was gonna spend that much money, I would probably just redesign a new front suspension with lower tubular control arms. Something kinda like this...

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

That wont solve the problem. your own control arms will still hit the fender because the dimensions of the spindle are still the dimensions of the spindle. The only thing I could think of is if you substantially lengthened the control arms, custom axles and set the tires further outbaord with a widebody and gave yourself clearance there but your talking about a foot further out because further out than that strut tower is frame parts. I guess you could cut out the entire front of the car and go tubular, suppose that solves the problem. But then your doing a bunch of crazy stuff just to get around redesigning only one part, the spindles. that and the price of the custom control arms is probably the same price or more than fabbing spindles. The baja guys are the ones to look at for this stuff. it wont be soon but I'll be getting these done for DSM eventually. They will be setup so that evo brakes are direct fit. If we can organize a group buy or something I could probably get them started much much sooner but I doubt enough people are interested. I imagine DSMers will want to just ride on bumpstops or take a hammer to their strut tower.

These typically run in the 300-400 range for a set on baja application stuff in MASS production. Which is pretty close to what people are paying just for spindles to accept evo brakes. If there was enough of a market I think they would be a viable option.

 

[turbosax2]

Honestly, $3-400 seems like a very good price for a set of spindles that accept Evo brakes and correct our problems. I would definitely pay that when I get to suspension/brakes on my car.

 

[tsiboosted]

I would for sure be interested in seeing something like that. But as you said. The market would have to be there Im sure. Unfortunatley, I dont see enough DSM on the track enough to see allot of people buying them. Perhaps they (ones with issues) will just have to come up with another solution for now.

 

[gixxerdrew]

I would for sure be interested in seeing something like that. But as you said. The market would have to be there Im sure. Unfortunatley, I dont see enough DSM on the track enough to see allot of people buying them. Perhaps they (ones with issues) will just have to come up with another solution for now.

Maybe we could start a thread about it see what kind of interest there was and all. The thing is the basis for them will have to be a set of JDM GVR4 knuckles which means probably the ones on my car come off but I cant do that when I have races to make it to we might need someone able to donate their set as well for temporary. The basic concept is to keep all your geometry as stock except the mount point for the tires. Axles are the only thing that will still be at a different angle than stock. if we did like 1.25" drop spindle the height your at where the control arm is bottoming out the suspension will be near stock location, lots of shock travel, lots of everything. then you'll be back to that point if your going race car low. like 1.5" ground clearance type stuff