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General Air-Fuel Ratio

Posted by 90_Talon_TSi_AWD, Jul 14, 2019

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  1. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    I picked up a '90 Talon TSi AWD several summers back and it has some aftermarket devices I'm still familiarizing myself with.

    The car drove perfectly fine the last time I drove it. Didn't "wind it up" or anything, just a casual leisurely stroll through town. Parked it in the driveway. It didn't start a day or two later.

    One of the aftermarket devices is an air-fuel ratio "computer" in the glovebox.

    Not to be too generic with the question, but how can I "bypass" this or verify that my no-start is related to it or not?
     
  2. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    Oh, and the ECU has an "OSTRICH 2.0" device plugged into it and it has a USB Port.

    Is there software that is supposed to come with this "OSTRICH 2.0"?
    Can I plug into this USB with the correct software and perform "diagnostics"?
     
  3. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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  4. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    I am already in-process of that thread.

    I'm afraid it doesn't really cover what I am asking.
    I'd like to know how to see if my no-start is due to the air-fuel ratio "computer".

    How do I bypass it (ie, revert the setup back more inline with "stock" equipment)?

    Better yet, keep it but verify that it is working.
    But I need assistance in doing that - this isn't exactly "stock" equipment.
     
  5. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    Here is a picture of the air-fuel ratio "computer" that I'm trying to determine if "this thing" is the issue with my no-start. But this is my first run-in with anything like this so any assistance will be greatly appreciated. DSC00517-small.jpg
     
  6. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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  7. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Is that an old innovate wide band???
     

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  8. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    no clue as to if an "old innovate wide band" or not... very new to this... very technically savvy so I do promise that I'll catch up fast, but this is my first go around with any Q&A regarding my "as-is" car and all of its aftermarket gizmos...

    i'm hoping that "old innovate wide band" is a 'good thing' :idontknow:
     
    Last edited: Jul 14, 2019
  9. Vegas smith

    Vegas smith Proven Member

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    It's highly unlikely that the box is causing a no-start. It just reads your air-fuel ratio.
     

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  10. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    noted, thanks...
    i didn't know if it was "controlling" air &/or fuel versus just "reading" them...
     
  11. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    One thing you can try, after verifying spark, is to spray starting fluid into the intake to see if it will catch and/or run. I am also the owner of a car that is extremely hard to start right now, though it would run strongly after warming up. I think some mods and related tuning can impair drivability, particularly if not done with care. Was it ever difficult to start before that last drive? Did you put fuel in it on that drive (as in possibly bad gas, not is it out of gas)? The idle system has some aspects that could be adjusted so it gets too much air during cold start. You may have to open the air filter box to get the fluid in, for the stock-type at least, because the angle is not easy to spray in.
     

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  12. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    i removed the fuel rail and injectors, put gas into the cylinders via the injector holes, put everything back together, then tried to start
    i also removed spark plugs, put gas in the cylinders via the spark plug holes, put everything back togetgher, then tried to start

    both yield the same thing - it will "try" to start for four/five cycles then it's back to just cranking with nothing
    as soon as the manually inserted gas is burned up, then it just cranks and cranks with nothing

    i haven't bought a "noid light" (?) yet in order to verify pulse at the injectors
    i really think i'm not getting a pulse but haven't verified that with any diagnostic indicator

    i also don't know if there is some "safety shutoff" that needs "reset"
    the ones that i'm familiar with shut off the fuel and my fuel delivery to the fuel rail is fine
    but i have heard of some that disable the injectors also - not familiar with them or even know if the DSM's used such a "safety shutoff"
     
  13. motomattx

    motomattx Proven Member

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    No such safety device, if this is a 90-94 its more likely a fuel pump, cam angle sensor, or ecu problem, as long as the timing belt didn't break or slip.
     

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  14. delta448

    delta448 DSM Wiseman

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    1) You have an Innovate LM-1 wideband
    2) Do not pour raw liquid gasoline into your engine
    3) Do not spray starting fluid into your Mass Air Sensor
    4) There is no safety shutoff

    It sounds like you have a fuel delivery problem. As the post above me says: Check the CAS. Check the MPI. Check the fuel pump. Check the ECU.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019

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  15. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    I would be looking at the pump, the pump relay and checking for fuel delivery. @motomattx has a very good list. I will add to it, the Coolant Temp Switch but it isn't the first thing to check. It sounds like fuel delivery is the issue. Verify pump operation then keep following Moto's list of checks.
     

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  16. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    where is the CAS located?
     
  17. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    found it...
    gonna be a weekend or two before i can get to it :(

    thanks for the replies...
     
  18. 90_Talon_TSi_AWD

    90_Talon_TSi_AWD Probationary Member

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    re: #1 - much appreciated for the LM-1 manual...

    re: #2 - how come? i've done that quite a bit over the years as a debug technique and haven't ever really run into any negative side effects... was i just lucky?

    re: #4 - thanks
     
  19. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    3) is because if someone puts TOO much liquid in the cylinder, you can't compress liquid and will bend a rod trying to compress it. It may not pertain to how you go about it but that is the reason why. I use carb spray usually or starting fluid LIGHTLY. WD40 will work in a pinch too.
    Your CAS is right on top, on the passenger side of the engine right at the back edge of the valve cover, next to the Throttle Body.
     

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  20. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    I'm also curious about the #2 warning with starting fluid. I could understand not wanting to saturate MAS unit on many vehicles that use a heated wire or film type device, though the Karman vortex operating principle at least on 1g dsm don't seem susceptible to me. I'd welcome more info on this. As a general rule I understand that starting fluid can tend to break down the protective oil film on the cylinder walls, and hasten wear of rings, cylinders, pistons, etc. but I believe the occasional spray is not devastating. Would it be better to decouple the intake hose from the throttle body for this? I'm still puzzled by the fact that this car seemed to run fine one time, and then wouldn't start on the next try. I could imagine a relay or electrical sensor used in the starting sequence that went out during the drive, but didn't affect the running engine. This description doesn't sound like fuel pump, though.
     

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  21. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    Shoot, I meant warning #3, just didn't look at the post carefully. The raw fuel in the port thing I get.
     

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  22. 1990TSIAWDTALON

    1990TSIAWDTALON Moderator

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    Can you get the fuel pump to come on at all? Could just be a fuse or relay. If it "wants" to try to run with starting fluid or gas then it sounds like it is just not getting fuel. Verify that. The coolant temp switch is notorious for a no start issue but usually isn't drive today, but not the next. It is important for the ECU to see that sensor working tho.
     

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    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
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  23. delta448

    delta448 DSM Wiseman

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    It's already been touched upon, but I'll clarify myself.

    #2) Liquid gasoline is not compressible and it wouldn't take much to hydrolock, even just a couple of cc's will bump compression ratio significantly.

    #3) Cans of CRC brand MAF cleaner clearly state right on the can to not use it on a Mitsubishi karman vortex sensor. I doubt starting fluid evaporates as quick as a quality MAF cleaner. People will claim they've used it and never had a problem but then mysteriously replaced their "defective" MAF a short time after. These sensors are very reliable, rarely get fouled and are very easily ruined by ignorance.
     

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  24. Mech Addict

    Mech Addict Proven Member

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    Thanks for the info on starting fluid. I'll certainly keep that in mind, not for the least of which it may be getting more difficult/expensive to replace many items on these 1g cars, like a Karman vortex sensor. There are other options for getting starting fluid into the intake if needed, downstream of the sensors. Of course fixing the car so it starts normally is by far the ideal.
    Cheers!
     

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  25. kteare

    kteare Probationary Member

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    I have a 97 GST and my fuel pump relay went out. Car wouldn't start one day out of the blue. Easy fix; cheap part.
     

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