2G Advice wanted for engine spec on street car build... (comp ratio, cams, lifters etc...)

[Dave_UK]

First thing's first.... I have spent a fair bit of time scrolling through all of the various threads etc looking for information and have got a lot of useful help. Sadly, a lot of the links are broken now so I am going to have to ask fresh...

I'm in the process of spec'ing up and ordering parts for my 4G63 build. Being in the UK, there is little to no reliable info available at the end of the phone. Yes we do (to a limited extent) get the Galant and Evo 1-3 but even people willing to work & tune on those are rare and hard to come by. If I had gone for a later Evo4+ then the world would have been my oyster for info and parts but it is what it is.... I'm hoping a few of you guys who have been doing this for years might be able to share some insight...

I am looking for circa 350hp (flywheel), to be street useable and not blow a transmission every couple of months. So far I have a couple of bolt on mods in my shopping basket, Forced performance exhaust manifold and Magnus Inlet but now the real tech stuff happens...

• Comp ratio... Over here in the UK we have full access to 97ron fuel and even 99 in most places. For a motor with a good slug of low down torque that picks up real quick i'm leaning towards 9.0:1 compression ratio... Thoughts?
• Turbo sizing... Plenty of access to Turbos from Garret, TurboSmart etc... what sort of compressor and exhaust sizes should I be looking for to achieve my fast spooling goal?
• Cam shafts... Worth changing for a different profile? I have read on here most people seem to switch to Kelford cams & on their site only list cam shafts that use solid lifters... Do I need a solid lifter profile for my goal? I had in mind a mild increase in lift and duration with a nice pair of adjustable pulleys... Any thoughts on accompanying valve springs as well?

The engine itself will be treated to ARP everything, a balance shaft delete, Calico coated ACL big ends, mains and thrust washers and looked after by a Link ECU system that swaps out the MAF for MAP. Anything else I should be looking out for / any handy tips or pointers on parts to buy....

No wrong answers here guys... bombard me with your knowledge!

 

[IHeartMyHonda]

Based on my experience, you're underestimating the capabilities of a stock turbo engine. Your goal of 350hp is easily attainable with an Evo 3 turbo and supporting mods.

I achieved those numbers with the following:
Stock turbo block with ARP head studs
E3 16g
255lph fuel pump (or bigger)
1000cc injectors with e85 (this might be the difference between us since I don't know how accessible e85 is for you)
Ported stock 2g turbo manifold
Front mount intercooler
Turbo-back exhaust
Intake pipe (injen or similar)
Mild clutch upgrade

Aside from the head studs, everything between the valve cover and oil pan were 100% stock.

 

[Dave_UK]

Based on my experience, you're underestimating the capabilities of a stock turbo engine. Your goal of 350hp is easily attainable with an Evo 3 turbo and supporting mods.

I achieved those numbers with the following:
Stock turbo block with ARP head studs
E3 16g
255lph fuel pump (or bigger)
1000cc injectors with e85 (this might be the difference between us since I don't know how accessible e85 is for you)
Ported stock 2g turbo manifold
Front mount intercooler
Turbo-back exhaust
Intake pipe (injen or similar)
Mild clutch upgrade

Aside from the head studs, everything between the valve cover and oil pan were 100% stock.

Thanks buddy. So E85 is not available from pumps here in the UK, we have to make do with good old fashioned Gasoline.

With regards to building the engine, its done 190,000 miles... I am not 100% sure if it is even the one the car left the factory with and has so many question marks over its condition i'm just gonna rebuild it from the ground up anyways, same goes for the turbo and transmission...

I have a new fuel pump (spec I can't lay my hands on right now), it will be getting a new front mount (the one on it has seen way better days!), it has a turbo back Apexi system with only a single Greddy silencer at the rear which is in good condition so I will keep for now, and this is the intake I am thinking of...

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[curt-s]

What's the highest octane pump gas you have there? That will also help decide compression ratio and ignition timing.

I second @IHeartMyHonda

The bigger the turbo, the less fun it is on the street unless you're always going to ride around at 4000rpm. Any 16g will do but the E3 will have the quickest response even though it doesn't flow as much as some other variants.
You don't need a FP manifold for 350, that's a 2G or Evo3 easily with lots of room to spare and it will keep exhaust velocity up. Throw a blanket on it or get it coated.
Stock cams will make this power level without issue and earlier than the bigger cams. Your goals are pretty easily attainable with more stock components than you think. Going bigger intake and exhaust manifold are not necessities for 350bhp and just waste cash. If you decide you want more power later, you can always add them (provided they're available).

You're not adjusting lift or duration with adjustable pulleys, which I assume you mean cam gears. Lift and duration is camshaft, gears are static cam timing. For 350 you dont need gears. Use a new set of common Topline "3G" HLAs.
Upgrading springs is never a bad idea, especially replacing old stockers. A cheaper set of Manley or BCs will do fine. No need for double if you can avoid it, you don't need to wring it out to 8000-9000rpm. However, it's not a bad thing if you happen across a set at a reasonable price.

Unless you're going to cut a hole in your hood, that intake will do nothing for you. It will still draw in hot air from the engine bay and be restricted doing so.

 

[Justin DuBois]

Yeah, you can hit 350 and have a fun DD with room to grow using TD05w7cm exhaust Mitsu turbo setup. A Big 16G (evo 16G) is very responsive down low. (boost falls off between 6-7K)

7500 rpm rev limit will help save your oil pump - regardless of spring upgrades for your valves.

I'm running stock cams, and a 20G machined TD05 compressor with an extended tip billet compressor wheel, upgraded internal WG actuator with adjustable springs, and E3 manifold and 02 housing. (down pipe flange welded to match)

At full timing on E85, I'm getting stable boost up to 23psi, (can spike more) reaching 400hp flat across the power band. I do cruise at 3-4k most of the time subconsciously - but that's mostly cause I prefer very quick response jumping on the throttle in freeway traffic.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Authentic Evo 3 16G, 9:1 compression, lower lift 272 cams(HKS or DKS regrinds, GSC S1s, etc), Cyclone IM actuated/controlled by ECMLink, speed density, clutch to hold the power(southbend ftw) done deal. 350awhp on moderate boost and a ton of low end grunt thanks to 9:1 compression and the cyclone IM.


My favorite setup I ever had was on my Auto 1G with the setup described above. The torque hit of a 16G is so addictive.

 

[Dave_UK]

@Justin DuBois Whats a "Big 16G"? I'm guessing a term for a turbo that I'm not familiar with? (cut me some slack, i'm still translating "bonnet" to "hood" )

@CrackedDSM Whats a "Cyclone IM"? 9.0:1 C/R is where I was thinking of being with my C/R...

Are these the S1 cams you were referring to?: https://www.power-division.com/dsm-...sion-billet-evo-1-3-and-dsm-s1-camshafts.html With 268 Duration....

 

[CrackedDSM]

@Justin DuBois Whats a "Big 16G"? I'm guessing a term for a turbo that I'm not familiar with? (cut me some slack, i'm still translating "bonnet" to "hood" )

@CrackedDSM Whats a "Cyclone IM"? 9.0:1 C/R is where I was thinking of being with my C/R...

Are these the S1 cams you were referring to?: https://www.power-division.com/dsm-...sion-billet-evo-1-3-and-dsm-s1-camshafts.html With 268 Duration....

Cyclone Intake Manifold. Came off of some JDM Galant VR4’s. I think the same VR4s had the small 16G and yellow top 510cc injectors too.

But yeah I’d just search eBay or dsm classifieds for cyclone intake or cyclone IM and make sure it has the actuator and vacuum canister with it.

Those are the cams. HKS 272s are my personal favorite but hard to find. Delta does regrinds of your stock cams to match the profile though so that works too.

 

[Dave_UK]

Cyclone Intake Manifold. Came off of some JDM Galant VR4’s. I think the same VR4s had the small 16G and yellow top 510cc injectors too.

But yeah I’d just search eBay or dsm classifieds for cyclone intake or cyclone IM and make sure it has the actuator and vacuum canister with it.

Those are the cams. HKS 272s are my personal favorite but hard to find. Delta does regrinds of your stock cams to match the profile though so that works too.

Like this bad boy?

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Thanks bud, I'll keep an eye open for HKS 272's. I have a friend who is a HKS dealer here in the UK, he has promised to sort me out a deal on some nice pulleys (I think you guys refer to them as cam gears) so I'll ask him about the actual shafts also.

 

[CrackedDSM]

Like this bad boy?

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Thanks bud, I'll keep an eye open for HKS 272's. I have a friend who is a HKS dealer here in the UK, he has promised to sort me out a deal on some nice pulleys (I think you guys refer to them as cam gears) so I'll ask him about the actual shafts also.

That's it! Love those things.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

I know you have access to a fair bit but for the troubles of building an engine your HP is OEM parts safe. Also as soon as you start doing ARP mains your need a rehone of that girdle for the hole to be true and round, torque plate for the top of the block.

If you do want to do more work to the engine for the block then 9.0:1 is perfectly fine and will help with the lower end a bit more and combined with a good turbo it can help out some

Evo 3 16G is a good route as its nicely sized, fits in perfectly and can be had for good HP if done right. As for cams S1 is good for the steet, S2 sounds nice but may be a tad too much for the head.

Cylinder head wise, use SS valves and kiggly springs and new keepers.

Thankfully you dont need to go too hard of a build for your goals.

 

[Dave_UK]

I know you have access to a fair bit but for the troubles of building an engine your HP is OEM parts safe. Also as soon as you start doing ARP mains your need a rehone of that girdle for the hole to be true and round, torque plate for the top of the block.

If you do want to do more work to the engine for the block then 9.0:1 is perfectly fine and will help with the lower end a bit more and combined with a good turbo it can help out some

Evo 3 16G is a good route as its nicely sized, fits in perfectly and can be had for good HP if done right. As for cams S1 is good for the steet, S2 sounds nice but may be a tad too much for the head.

Cylinder head wise, use SS valves and kiggly springs and new keepers.

Thankfully you dont need to go too hard of a build for your goals.

Thanks bud, I had no idea about line honing the girdle but that's good info.

I was thinking about sticking with Supertech Stainless inlet and Inconel exhaust valves unless you can recommend differently?

I presume you mean this spring set from Kiggly: https://www.kigglyracing.com/product-page/steel-street-beehive-valvesprings Couldn't see any keeps though?

I might switch (as im going full link ECU anyway) to their trigger wheel kit: https://www.kigglyracing.com/product-page/billet-12-tooth-crank-trigger-sensor-kit-v3 Thoughts on this?

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Thanks bud, I had no idea about line honing the girdle but that's good info.

I was thinking about sticking with Supertech Stainless inlet and Inconel exhaust valves unless you can recommend differently?

I presume you mean this spring set from Kiggly: https://www.kigglyracing.com/product-page/steel-street-beehive-valvesprings Couldn't see any keeps though?

I might switch (as im going full link ECU anyway) to their trigger wheel kit: https://www.kigglyracing.com/product-page/billet-12-tooth-crank-trigger-sensor-kit-v3 Thoughts on this?

Ditch the inconel as they are attached ends only and can snap off. It's not common, but an issue and for your levels, it's not required.

The springs will work fine. If you wish later to up the power, then the next springs (high pressure) will be ideal with TI retainers and chromoly seats. Keepers are from GSC and sold on their own. just remember the springs need setting up and to use no more than 1 shim ideally! depends how specific you want to get as I made new seats to run zero shims on my build

I have the 12-1 tooth kit so thats a good one to use. your need to shave down the end of that billet part as it slightly fouls the tensioner (hydraulic) as mine did. a small file will fix that for you.

Once you done the honing / line bore you'll be fine, so it's just another cost to think about on the build

You might be fine without a diff but if you find its moving a bit then look into the quaife diff to help.

When you do pistons, at least look into the skirt coating for anti-wear. That can help some if oils are lacking at points or running in.

you could cut the costs of the build down a lot but since you have options for a bit of kit, I know you're going to go full everything

 

[Dave_UK]

Ditch the inconel as they are attached ends only and can snap off. It's not common, but an issue and for your levels, it's not required.

The springs will work fine. If you wish later to up the power, then the next springs (high pressure) will be ideal with TI retainers and chromoly seats. Keepers are from GSC and sold on their own. just remember the springs need setting up and to use no more than 1 shim ideally! depends how specific you want to get as I made new seats to run zero shims on my build

I have the 12-1 tooth kit so thats a good one to use. your need to shave down the end of that billet part as it slightly fouls the tensioner (hydraulic) as mine did. a small file will fix that for you.

Once you done the honing / line bore you'll be fine, so it's just another cost to think about on the build

You might be fine without a diff but if you find its moving a bit then look into the quaife diff to help.

When you do pistons, at least look into the skirt coating for anti-wear. That can help some if oils are lacking at points or running in.

you could cut the costs of the build down a lot but since you have options for a bit of kit, I know you're going to go full everything

Never had an Inconel valve do that and sold millions of them.... All though I have heard of it happening on extreme builds...

The pistons I will be designing myself through work (info and pics to follow) and will have the traditional PTFE skirt coating... maybe hard anodised crowns if I can be bothered with the time to do this extra job.

Lol, well you know what I do so the internal parts in this thread aren't going to cost me naff all. Might as well build the engine right and build it once with everything inside.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Never had an Inconel valve do that and sold millions of them.... All though I have heard of it happening on extreme builds...

The pistons I will be designing myself through work (info and pics to follow) and will have the traditional PTFE skirt coating... maybe hard anodised crowns if I can be bothered with the time to do this extra job.

Lol, well you know what I do so the internal parts in this thread aren't going to cost me naff all. Might as well build the engine right and build it once with everything inside.

Ceramic the crowns as your on normal fuels so anodizing is normally for the top ring but would not worry on that one much.

the valves dont do it often, and it is rare, it still something to be cautious of. some have great results and some done. I think maybe the OEM evo ones are 2 piece or if they at the bottom or the top thats one I dont know of. Evo valves are sodium filled but not sure on where their connection is. Im likely being overly cautious, haha so ignore me on this one.

since your going for more torque lower down vs high revs you going with an I beam vs a H beam? so like CP list their H beams stronger than their I beams but others list their H beams weajer than their I beams. so it gets a little confusing for the industry

 

[Dave_UK]

Ceramic the crowns as your on normal fuels so anodizing is normally for the top ring but would not worry on that one much.

the valves dont do it often, and it is rare, it still something to be cautious of. some have great results and some done. I think maybe the OEM evo ones are 2 piece or if they at the bottom or the top thats one I dont know of. Evo valves are sodium filled but not sure on where their connection is. Im likely being overly cautious, haha so ignore me on this one.

since your going for more torque lower down vs high revs you going with an I beam vs a H beam? so like CP list their H beams stronger than their I beams but others list their H beams weajer than their I beams. so it gets a little confusing for the industry

Yeah the crown coatings are not a priority It's just a maybe at this stage....

Sodium valves will always be 2 piece.... how else do you get the sodium in there?

TBH, all of the testing we have done in house and all of the customer feedback over the past 20 years has shown extremely fractional (if any!) performance or strength benefits on H over I and visa versa. I'll run our A beams as we have them in stock with the 22mm pin but otherwise I would not be being fussy about the rods. Its the quality of the machining and the attention to detail in things like bushing galleries etc that I am more interested in and I know we have that down to a T so its an easy choice to make really....

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Yeah the crown coatings are not a priority It's just a maybe at this stage....

Sodium valves will always be 2 piece.... how else do you get the sodium in there?

TBH, all of the testing we have done in house and all of the customer feedback over the past 20 years has shown extremely fractional (if any!) performance or strength benefits on H over I and visa versa. I'll run our A beams as we have them in stock with the 22mm pin but otherwise I would not be being fussy about the rods. Its the quality of the machining and the attention to detail in things like bushing galleries etc that I am more interested in and I know we have that down to a T so its an easy choice to make really....

Oh I know they get sodium inside somehow but if it's at the bottom where the valve seats on the stem or if it's on the top by the keeper as I have seen that. what ones better? I have no idea.

A beams, not read up on those much. one I need to check on more, as it's not one I hear much about. So many options to choose from. They should all be fairly good in material, just depends if the quality of the batch is good. least you're set for that side of it all thankfully. Good write off for company demo car then.

I think your build is pretty well setup with the others advice and turbo choice. you will have alot of smaller things along the way of course that may creep up.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Stock 6 bolt parts will get you to more than your goal.

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Stock 6 bolt parts will get you to more than your goal.

Finding a 6 bolt in the UK is hard. plus they have more discontinued items so no go hard enough as it is for parts

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Ahhh, no 6 bolt motors, dam.
They are strong as is. Thanks Bobby.

 

[Justin DuBois]

@Justin DuBois Whats a "Big 16G"? I'm guessing a term for a turbo that I'm not familiar with? (cut me some slack, i'm still translating "bonnet" to "hood" )

The MHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industry) TD05H turbo cartridge format comes with different size internals, paired with a 7cm exhaust turbine housing. 1G DSM came stock with 13b and 14b sized compressor wheels. There is a 16G size (can't remember what these shipped with) and then for the Evo 3/GVR4, they changed the large internal diameter of the compressor wheel keeping the 16G intake diameter - so we call it the "Big 16G". The Big 16G can be machined out to a 20G intake diameter and built with a 20G billet aluminum compressor wheel - keeping the 7cm exhaust housing (that can be clipped to manage the boost spike). This is known as the "Bastard" 20G - The upshot of which is full boost to redline, and a turbo format that fits under stock mitsubishi heat shields. Externally, it looks like a stock 1G turbo.

 

[Dave_UK]

The MHI (Mitsubishi Heavy Industry) TD05H turbo cartridge format comes with different size internals, paired with a 7cm exhaust turbine housing. 1G DSM came stock with 13b and 14b sized compressor wheels. There is a 16G size (can't remember what these shipped with) and then for the Evo 3, they changed the large internal diameter of the compressor wheel keeping the 16G intake diameter - so we call it the "Big 16G". The Big 16G can be machined out to a 20G intake diameter and built with a 20G billet aluminum compressor wheel - keeping the 7cm exhaust housing (that can be clipped to manage the boost spike). This is known as the "Bastard" 20G - The upshot of which is full boost to redline, and a turbo format that fits under stock mitsubishi heat shields. Externally, it looks like a stock 1G turbo.

This sounds interesting, where does one purchase such a turbo?

 

[Justin DuBois]

This sounds interesting, where does one purchase such a turbo?

You can't buy one off the shelf, but you can have one built. It helps to have a core "Big 16G" turbo to be modified and rebuilt. The 16G compressor cover is machined to match the compressor wheel you choose (there are options). The re-build is not difficult, but you do need to have the spinning components balanced, and then assembled correctly to preserve the balance. Machining and Balancing requires special equipment, so it's not something you can do yourself.

There is another "Justin" here who built my Basterd 20G - You can reach out to him for pricing and availability.

JusMX141​

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

This sounds interesting, where does one purchase such a turbo?

You can buy the E3 16G on FP still. Plus the cast manifold will mate well for you.

If i was still in the UK i had a spare I could of rebuilt for you, actually I had about 2 or 3 spares just because

 

[MattiaFTW]

Are you in the Europe DSM WhatsApp group. There is a guy making adapters that fit on stock turbo manifold to Vband. This way you can way more different types of turbos. Love PSR for their price, avalibilty here in europe and they are pretty hard to kill. I have a gtx3576 (too big) running WRC Anti-Lag and he survived over 3 years. Currently can not say how much hp im running. But im on 1.6 bar of boost on a 8.5:1 CR with a stock 7 bolt head on 95 pumpgas.( Personally like to keep cr low and boost higher) Im guessing its around the 350BHP mark but don't quote me (way to much for a GST IMO). I know DSMlink is pretty difficult to get here in Europe so i opted to go Maxxecu. Pretty cheap super versatile and no hidden feature costs.

With a stock 7 bolt head you will hit 350bhp easily. Just make sure it in good condition. With some ARP headstuds, Forged Pistons and Rods (for my own piece of mind), a bigger turbo and a good tune you will hit 350 easily