About to finish thing belt, opinions appreciated

[juntjoo]

...as u can see by the pics. Does this mean the the exhaust sprocket is installed a little off or ...

Ultimately, do I want both cams in the same rested position like in the pic with both sets of cams pointed upwards before installing belt, BUT exhaust sprocket timing mark off a bit counter clockwise as shown or....

Do I install the belt while timing marks are aligned, BUT, exhaust cam slightly over CLOCKWISE, but then once belt tension applied the exhaust (and exhaust only?) sprocket will adjust back counter clockwise a bit putting cam shafts back in sync?

Thanks

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[juntjoo]

When the marks on the cam pulleys are lined up the cams are where they are supposed to be. It doesn't matter if one cam has spring tension and the other doesn't.

Okay thanks. I was under the impression that they both had to be in the same position. Seems also buy other responses that is not the case.

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[Calan]

Okay thanks. I was under the impression that they both had to be in the same position. Seems also buy other responses that is not the case.

Please explain. Maybe we aren't all on the same page here with what you are asking.

 

[juntjoo]

I can't think of a simpler way to explain it. Read the article that Lofty linked to.

You simply line up the marks on the gears so that they are across from each other and parallel to the head, and put the belt over them. Then use something to hold the belt in place on the gears (zip tie, paper clamp, clothespin, kid's finger, heavy books...whatever) while you put it around the other components.

I'm actually going by that article, but I wasn't having a problem following the instructions. I was having a problem with the "rocket science". The cam shafts being off didn't make sense. I like to know how and why things work.

If someone understands and would like to share, thanks, otherwise I apologize for frustrating you all. But thanks for your help. I would not have gotten this far with out this community's help.

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[Boostinsideways]

DSM Graveyard 4g63 Timing Belt Tutorial - YouTube

 

[Calan]

If someone understands and would like to share, thanks, otherwise I apologize for frustrating you all. But thanks for your help. I would not have gotten this far with out this community's help.

Well maybe I'm just not understanding what you aren't understanding.

There will always be some tension on the cams/gears due to the valve springs trying to keep the valves closed (unless you pull a couple of rocker arms). So you have to rotate either the intake or exhaust gear (or both) slightly to get them to line up. Once they are lined up, you put the belt over them and it keeps them aligned.

Some people start with the intake gear and then position the belt on the exhaust gear last...but for me it's much easier to align both gears first and clamp them in place. That way, the tensioner is the last thing you have to deal with and everything will be aligned properly once you get the belt over it.

Does that help?

 

[juntjoo]

Please explain. Maybe we aren't all on the same page here with what you are asking.

I was under the impression that both can shafts had to be in the same exact position to be lined up correctly prior to installing the belt. So I expected that when I lined up the timing marks in the middle that both shafts would be in the same rested position, but didn't expect to find that while the intake cam would be settled without spring tension, I had to hold the exhaust shaft against spring tension(timing mark at 2:45, not 3 exactly) to
maintain the timing marks' alignment. But apparently that IS "in sync"


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[juntjoo]

Well maybe I'm just not understanding what you aren't understanding.

There will always be some tension on the cams/gears due to the valve springs trying to keep the valves closed (unless you pull a couple of rocker arms). So you have to rotate either the intake or exhaust gear (or both) slightly to get them to line up. Once they are lined up, you put the belt over them and it keeps them aligned.

Some people start with the intake gear and then position the belt on the exhaust gear last...but for me it's much easier to align both gears first and clamp them in place. That way, the tensioner is the last thing you have to deal with and everything will be aligned properly once you get the belt over it.

Does that help?

Honestly? Once u said "there will always be tension..." you lost me because unless I torque either shaft both will be at rest without any tension, and the cams on both shafts will all be in the same position -which was what I initially assumed to be in sync.

Thanks tho calan. Appreciate your effort. I think I got the jist of it. Going to sleep for now...

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[juntjoo]

I use these

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. Line up the crank sprocket oil pump (correctly), the rear cam gear, and get the front close. keep the tensioner pulley loose with the tensioner bolted in place and the pin installed. From there you can install the belt, keep the slack in the tensioner side of the belt. From there install the clips towards the bottom of the gears to hold the belt. Being that you have the tensioner pulley free there will be enough room to adjust the cam gears to where you need them. From there you can turn the cam gear a tooth at a time until it is lined up, than adjust your tensioner pulley (leave the pin installed) and turn the engine over a until the marks like up again to verify that it is in time. From there you can set the tension with the pulley to where you can just pull the pin out and reinstall it after it has sat for ten minutes.

Thanks, very informative. Should be useful tomorrow.

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[Calan]

Honestly? Once u said "there will always be tension..." you lost me because unless I torque either shaft both will be at rest without any tension, and the cams on both shafts will all be in the same position -which was what I initially assumed to be in sync.

Stop worrying about "cam tension", "at rest", "in sync"... etc etc etc.

Just line up the marks on the gears. They are there for a reason.

 

[juntjoo]

Stop worrying about "cam tension", "at rest", "in sync"... etc etc etc.

Just line up the marks on the gears. They are there for a reason.

I modified my previous reply and thanked u for your efforts. P.s. I just wanted to make sure that my sprocket wasn't off. It's not like I make every step of working on my car this difficult. But this isn't something u cam just go back and fix. Anyway, thanks again. I'm ready to finish it tomorrow. Night!

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[juntjoo]

http://youtu.be/uJVuMJ4kmtM

I think this guy has the same concern

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[DSM1G90]

That's why of the two 17mm wrenches - to hold the two sprockets "IN SYNC" while you lay the belt across and secure the belt down over the sprockets with ... whatever you use ... .

Then, the belt teeth will hold the sprockets in place while you finish the lacing.

 

[juntjoo]

That's why of the two 17mm wrenches - to hold the two sprockets "IN SYNC" while you lay the belt across and secure the belt down over the sprockets with ... whatever you use ... .

Then, the belt teeth will hold the sprockets in place while you finish the lacing.

Okay. Yeah, that step I never quite got, holding the belt on. I just figured it would rest ontop both cam sprockets at rest not knowing there would have to be a tooth's space of tension between the sprockets along the belt. Makes sense now.

Also might explain why when I started this job I noticed the cam marks were off and this car had been sorta sputtering and back firing before I opened it up. We'll see...

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[juntjoo]

As u can see there is a pretty big gap between the rod and arm. It's supposed to be around 4mm and I'm measuring like 10mm.

Also, how is my belt deflection. Looks like 1/4"

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The belt felt pretty tight at 1st so I loosened the tensioner pulley a bit. How should it feel with a brand new belt? Thanks

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[RvlutionMtrsprt]

If it's tensioned properly, you should be able to pull the grenade pin out of the hydraulic tensioner and then put it right back in.

 

[juntjoo]

If it's tensioned properly, you should be able to pull the grenade pin out of the hydraulic tensioner and then put it right back in.

Really? So maybe I over torqued the tension pulley? It's gotta go back a bit counter clockwise?

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[Calan]

Yes...your tension is WAY off. Put away the ruler and don't worry about belt deflection. This isn't a power steering belt.

You should be able to slide the grenade pin in and out as RM stated, or use a .153" drill bit between the arm and top of the tensioner. (The pin is much easier to deal with).


BTW - Out of curiosity, which t-belt procedure says to measure belt deflection? It needs to be corrected.

 

[JusMX141]

Merged....again. Three threads for one timing belt job = one merged thread.


Please stop creating new threads for every bolt you remove.

 

[juntjoo]

Yes...your tension is WAY off. Put away the ruler and don't worry about belt deflection. This isn't a power steering belt.

You should be able to slide the grenade pin in and out as RM stated, or use a .153" drill bit between the arm and top of the tensioner. (The pin is much easier to deal with).


BTW - Out of curiosity, which t-belt procedure says to measure belt deflection? It needs to be corrected.

None, I'm just a little lost.

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[juntjoo]

Merged....again. Three threads for one timing belt job = one merged thread.


Please stop creating new threads for every bolt you remove.

Oh alright, sorry

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[Calan]

None, I'm just a little lost

Just follow the procedure, and don't add anything to it (like measuring deflection).

Timing belt deflection changes based on the position of the cams, age of the belt, etc...which is why we have a hydraulic tensioner in the first place. The goal is to properly set the tensioner travel, so that it can compensate for the deflection and any stretch that may occur in the belt.

 

[juntjoo]

Just follow the procedure, and don't add anything to it (like measuring deflection).

Timing belt deflection changes based on the position of the cams, age of the belt, etc...which is why we have a hydraulic tensioner in the first place. The goal is to properly set the tensioner travel, so that it can compensate for the deflection and any stretch that may occur in the belt.

Ah, thank u. Now I know. I was wondering why we had two parts to apply tension. Btw, no procedure mentioned anything about deflection but in my ignorance I had no other point of reference to verify my work was done right not knowing the point of the tensioner. Brilliant stuff. Tho way too many parts in these things! Thanks again calan. R u a pro/certified mechanic or just an enthusiast?

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[Calan]

Thanks again calan. R u a pro/certified mechanic?

Oh hell no.

I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of weeks ago though.


(I've just learned a lot about DSMs the hard way, and I like to read.)

 

[juntjoo]

Oh hell no.

I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express a couple of weeks ago though.


(I've just learned a lot about DSMs the hard way, and I like to read.)

Huh? Holiday inn? I don't get it. Btw, u wouldn't happen to know if the power steering pump pivots to allow you to slip h2o/ps belt over the pulley would you?

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[BurrowZ]

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Oh my god. HAHA..