About to finish thing belt, opinions appreciated

[juntjoo]

...as u can see by the pics. Does this mean the the exhaust sprocket is installed a little off or ...

Ultimately, do I want both cams in the same rested position like in the pic with both sets of cams pointed upwards before installing belt, BUT exhaust sprocket timing mark off a bit counter clockwise as shown or....

Do I install the belt while timing marks are aligned, BUT, exhaust cam slightly over CLOCKWISE, but then once belt tension applied the exhaust (and exhaust only?) sprocket will adjust back counter clockwise a bit putting cam shafts back in sync?

Thanks

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[juntjoo]

So the old belt broke?

Not completely luckily

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[Calan]

So the old belt broke?

Not completely luckily

You need to elaborate on that one a little.

How did it "not break completely"? Did it come apart around the belt? Missing teeth?

 

[juntjoo]

Did you follow the timing procedure EXACTLY...let the tensioner sit for 15 minutes, rotate the engine 6 times and verify all the marks are still line up?

Have you gone over all the sensors and everything you pulled? Did you take pics before you started to use as a reference?

Have you read the no-start tech article? Have you checked to see if you have fuel and spark?

Yes yes and yes except pics and no no start article and spark. So no I wasn't totally prepared for post testing. I do know pretty much every step I took up to installing belt. I just wasn't prepared to do any diagnostics. I want to check that no start article u mentioned tho.

Yeah granted it's a big job for a beginner with limited time and unfortunately I didn't have as much luck with this as I was hoping.

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[juntjoo]

You need to elaborate on that one a little.

How did it "not break completely"? Did it come apart around the belt? Missing teeth?

One side of the belt I guess derailed u could say, enough to notify me there was a problem and get home and turn off the engine. So no damage done

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[Calan]

One side of the belt I guess derailed u could say, enough to notify me there was a problem and get home and turn off the engine. So no damage done

What do you mean by "derailed"? Did the belt come off the pulleys or gears or something?

If it was enough to "notify you there was a problem", how do you know there was no internal damage to the engine? Did you rotate the motor and check for bent valves, or do a leak-down test?

No offense, but with so many things missing from your descriptions and the procedures you have been using during this thread, there is no telling what the problem is. I think most of us right now are wondering if you got the marks aligned properly when you put the belt back on.

Start from the beginning with a detailed description of what happened, what you found, and the steps you took to isolate and fix the problem...and maybe we can help you work through this.

 

[juntjoo]

Yeah, I knew I needed a little luck with this being such a big job, timing belt and BSE, and to my credit I did a lot of it pretty well, except for 1 single mistake -i hope only 1, whatever it is. Mind u I've spent about a grand buying tools each step of the way, so maybe this was expected, but really the worst part of it is just that my other vehicle just quit on me leaving me w/out a spare, which having one was the while point of this endeavor which began when I bought that pretty blue car off craigslist almost 2 months ago from a guy who promised me the timing belt had been changed 30k ago

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[juntjoo]

What do you mean by "derailed"? Did the belt come off the pulleys or gears or something?

If it was enough to "notify you there was a problem", how do you know there was no internal damage to the engine? Did you rotate the motor and check for bent valves, or do a leak-down test?

No offense, but with so many things missing from your descriptions and the procedures you have been using during this thread, there is no telling what the problem is. I think most of us right now are wondering if you got the marks aligned properly when you put the belt back on.

Start from the beginning with a detailed description of what happened, what you found, and the steps you took to isolate and fix the problem...and maybe we can help you work through this.

About a centimeter of belt tore off leaving 75% intact and definitely on and in place.no funny noises whenever I've hand turned crank. Don't know what a leak down test is. Followed vfaq on both procedures just about to a T...

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[juntjoo]

Didn't pull any sensors. Just detached battery. Verified timing marks about three times after ensuring grenade pin easily inserted tensioner. ...

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[Calan]

Don't know what a leak down test is.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/338152-compression-leak-down-testing.html

Followed vfaq on both procedures just about to a T...

Which parts weren't exactly to a T?

 

[juntjoo]

Even looked under#1 spark plug to see piston@ tdc, along with ensuring timing marks@ 3 & 9o' clock with dowell pins up and cam lobes up, exhaust slightly to the right. Used clips to hold belt then rotated several times to recheck. Worked perfect apparently

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[juntjoo]

Mmm... Did tensioner pulley by hand since didn't have proper torque wrench but I think I did it good. Did it a couple times since 1st time belt felt too tight. Two little holes on pulley ended up some where around 11 & 1o' clock. Tightened the bolt by hand and quite tightly. When done belt tension felt 'good'. ..

Didn't use torque wrench on most bolts.... Can't think of anything else that would require as much precision

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[Calan]

Ok...

1. Do you have the car and can you take any pics? If so, pull the #1 plug and insert a long screwdriver or something, and then slowly rotate the motor CW with a wrench on the crank bolt until the screwdriver is at the very top of it's travel (piston at TDC). Then shoot pics of the cam gears from the driver's side.

2. Has your mechanic worked on DSMs before?

I'm curious as to why they "just upon listening to it crank thought it was the timing". Usually, if the mechanical timing is off enough to cause a no start, you'll hear nothing out of the ordinary, or a whole lot out of the ordinary. I'm wondering why they would assume it's the timing instead of no fuel or spark, or something else. Did you happen to remove the CAS during all of this?

Did it a couple times since 1st time belt felt too tight. Two little holes on pulley ended up some where around 11 & 1o' clock. Tightened the bolt by hand and quite tightly. When done belt tension felt 'good'.

We've been over this... stop worrying about the belt tension. Either the tensioner travel was correct, or it wasn't.

When you rotate the tensioner pulley and tighten it down, you are essentially setting the preload on the tensioner. If it's correct, the tensioner grenade pin will slide in and out easily, and there should be about .150" to .156" of space between the tensioner pivot arm and the top of the tensioner housing. Once you pull the pin, the tensioner will try to "relax"...so you rotate the engine a few times and then let it sit until it finds it's happy place, and then make sure the pin still slides in and out easily. If it doesn't, you loosen the pulley and go through the process again.

The reason for 6 rotations is to get all of the marks to line back up (although with the BS removed it's irrelevant; you just need the crank at TDC and the cam gears properly aligned).

 

[juntjoo]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/338152-compression-leak-down-testing.html



Which parts weren't exactly to a T?

Your article? Cool. I will definitely study it. Thanks. This will all end up a valuable and educational experience but im just gonna have to recover from these unforeseen financial lessons I'm going through. I just can't wait to get car running and back to work/stability and then on to taking on a butt load of repairs on my civic, so you'll all get a vacation from me , but I'll be back no doubt

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[juntjoo]

Ok...

1. Do you have the car and can you take any pics? If so, pull the #1 plug and insert a long screwdriver or something, and then slowly rotate the motor CW with a wrench on the crank bolt until the screwdriver is at the very top of it's travel (piston at TDC). Then shoot pics of the cam gears from the driver's side.

2. Has your mechanic worked on DSMs before?

I'm curious as to why they "just upon listening to it crank thought it was the timing". Usually, if the mechanical timing is off enough to cause a no start, you'll hear nothing out of the ordinary, or a whole lot out of the ordinary. I'm wondering why they would assume it's the timing instead of no fuel or spark, or something else. Did you happen to remove the CAS during all of this?



We've been over this... stop worrying about the belt tension. Either the tensioner travel was correct, or it wasn't.

No! I'm stranded without a vehicle. My dsm is held hostage by this new mechanic. He was the only guy yesterday who said he had time to check it out but apparently he just said that to get my car in his garage because he didn't start looking@til late yesterday. Yeah, but gut feeling is the timing is good. Unfortunately I can't check it now. I was just trying to ideas in case he's cheating me so I can possibly detect it and just push my car somewhere else. I'm afraid he'll find a simple problem then charge me up the butt for a bunch of "timing" work.

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[juntjoo]

I don't know his experience. He said something about about working on a talon. And instead of just saying it was an interference engine he grabbed a booklet to point out that detail to me. Don't know if that means anything but I can see a swindler flashing a bunch of warning materials @ their unsuspecting victims to prepare them for big estimates.

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[juntjoo]

What do u think? Think I should drop in in the morning un announced and have them show me the timing is off. I think I will. Dang, gotta find the public transportation schedule. I really don't miss riding the bus. @least I don't have to wear a heavy back pack...

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[Calan]

Have you hit up the regional forums down in that area to see if someone local could give you a hand? Having a set of experienced eyes on it with you makes all the difference in the world.

And... I don't trust any "shop" to work on DSM (or any other car for that matter) unless they have plenty of references that I can talk to.

 

[juntjoo]

Ok...

1. Do you have the car and can you take any pics? If so, pull the #1 plug and insert a long screwdriver or something, and then slowly rotate the motor CW with a wrench on the crank bolt until the screwdriver is at the very top of it's travel (piston at TDC). Then shoot pics of the cam gears from the driver's side.

2. Has your mechanic worked on DSMs before?

I'm curious as to why they "just upon listening to it crank thought it was the timing". Usually, if the mechanical timing is off enough to cause a no start, you'll hear nothing out of the ordinary, or a whole lot out of the ordinary. I'm wondering why they would assume it's the timing instead of no fuel or spark, or something else. Did you happen to remove the CAS during all of this?



We've been over this... stop worrying about the belt tension. Either the tensioner travel was correct, or it wasn't.

When you rotate the tensioner pulley and tighten it down, you are essentially setting the preload on the tensioner. If it's correct, the tensioner grenade pin will slide in and out easily, and there should be about .150" to .156" of space between the tensioner pivot arm and the top of the tensioner housing. Once you pull the pin, the tensioner will try to "relax"...so you rotate the engine a few times and then let it sit until it finds it's happy place, and then make sure the pin still slides in and out easily. If it doesn't, you loosen the pulley and go through the process again.

The reason for 6 rotations is to get all of the marks to line back up (although with the BS removed it's irrelevant; you just need the crank at TDC and the cam gears properly aligned).

Id have to say that if anything, after messing with it after people here let me know I had too much space between rod & arm the grenade pin slid in easy enough but after some time of testing, rotating crank, it settled maybe a but lower leaving maybe a little less space leaving a tighter path for the grenade pin, although it was still able to be inserted, but just with some force. So if anything the space might have been under or on .15". So I MAY have rushed that part. Idk. Could that have caused my problem? Grenade pin still fit at least

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[juntjoo]

Have you hit up the regional forums down in that area to see if someone local could give you a hand? Having a set of experienced eyes on it with you makes all the difference in the world.

And... I don't trust any "shop" to work on DSM (or any other car for that matter) unless they have plenty of references that I can talk to.

Option definitely worth exploring. Might have even been worth taking it to the mitsu dealership

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[Calan]

Don't let it get you down. It sounds like you have a good attitude, like your car, and want to learn.

There is a LOT to learn, and it never ends...it just takes time, patience, and lots of study to get a handle on things and feel confident while you are turning wrenches.

 

[juntjoo]

Don't let it get you down. It sounds like you have a good attitude, like your car, and want to learn.

There is a LOT to learn, and it never ends...it just takes time, patience, and lots of study to get a handle on things and feel confident while you are turning wrenches.

Right on. Yeah, I just gotta put in the time and $, then slowly but surely they'll both come back to me. Thanks again calan. This time I've definitely learned to plan on plan b's and c's.

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[Calan]

One more suggestion... edit your Tapatalk settings to remove that annoying tag from the end of your posts.

 

[juntjoo]

One more suggestion... edit your Tapatalk settings to remove that annoying tag from the end of your posts.

How's this? Man, can't sleep. Especially while listening to coast to coast. Topic of the show is survival preparation in apocalyptic catastrophic disaster situations. Was trying to get my mind off my petty car situation. Now I've got the end of the world to worry about. Gotta get me a portable water filter, gun, ammo, seeds and radio with a hand crank

Not such an annoying sig

 

[juntjoo]

Dangit! I screwed it up. Mechanic just showed me how I lined it up, which was correct, as far as how I did it. So no foul play with the mechanic, but I did screw up.

I DID line up the timing marks on the cams but did NOT ensure the dowel pins were exactly north. I'll see for sure in a few hours. All in all it'll be a $300 (mechanic, loss of work,rental car). But not sooo bad.
So hopefully anyone else doing one of these for the 1 st time following this thread heed my lessons. Stay tuned. Mechanic may come back with more. Dang, how did I overlook that!

 

[Calan]

So you are saying one of the dowels was down, and one was up (or both down)? That is the only way the dowels could be pointed if the marks on the cam gears lined up across from each other. The dowels can't be "just a little off" if the marks align.

The exception to this would be adjustable cam gears that also fit the Evo engine, which also have dowel holes that are 90* from the DSM holes...or ACGs that aren't centered when the t-belt is installed. But from your pics you are running stock gears so this wouldn't apply.