About to finish thing belt, opinions appreciated

[juntjoo]

...as u can see by the pics. Does this mean the the exhaust sprocket is installed a little off or ...

Ultimately, do I want both cams in the same rested position like in the pic with both sets of cams pointed upwards before installing belt, BUT exhaust sprocket timing mark off a bit counter clockwise as shown or....

Do I install the belt while timing marks are aligned, BUT, exhaust cam slightly over CLOCKWISE, but then once belt tension applied the exhaust (and exhaust only?) sprocket will adjust back counter clockwise a bit putting cam shafts back in sync?

Thanks

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[juntjoo]

So you are saying one of the dowels was down, and one was up (or both down)? That is the only way the dowels could be pointed if the marks on the cam gears lined up across from each other. The dowels can't be "just a little off" if the marks align.

The exception to this would be adjustable cam gears that also fit the Evo engine, which also has dowel holes that are 90* from the DSM holes...but from your pics you are running stock gears.

No, they were both up but slightly turned inwards. I aligned the marks by my eyes from a slightly hunched over position -b4 securing the belt to it of course.

 

[Calan]

No, they were both up but slightly turned inwards. I aligned the marks by my eyes from a slightly hunched over position -b4 securing the belt to it of course.

Then the marks weren't properly aligned.

 

[SkyGrowsCold]

Although I have nothing to contribute to this thread and it appears the problem has been found and is fixed or is going to be fixed I must say I really admire juntjoo's persistence to work on his car himself and ask questions (a lot of questions as I also read his BSE post). I'm also impressed with how people stuck with helping him even though there seemed to be some points of tension like a good book or something, so here's thanks to them even though I wasn't involved there were still little things I picked up from all the posting.

Juntjoo keep up the asking of questions, after researching first of course, and it seems your well on your way to gaining a lot of knowledge on your car and everyone else thanks for taking the time to respond and help this guy out.
Special thanks goes to calan since it seems he stuck with this one the whole way though. I now step off my little box and go back to reading other posts.

 

[juntjoo]

Then the marks weren't properly aligned.

I know -now. From my angle they looked so.

 

[DSM1G90]

I took the mirror off from inside of the car to see the reflection of my marks in respective to the top of the block. That way, I had as close as a direct view of what I need to be accurate.

Then, I took the mirror and at by the EXH cam, I could see straight down the line to see if the marks are facing each other straight on.

Why some mechs have a small mirror in their tool box to see around corners that they can't see direct.

Cams gotta look like this: http://www.dsmtuners.com/gallery/files/9/2/0/8/7/01_4g63_cam_marks_e.jpg

 

[juntjoo]

Although I have nothing to contribute to this thread and it appears the problem has been found and is fixed or is going to be fixed I must say I really admire juntjoo's persistence to work on his car himself and ask questions (a lot of questions as I also read his BSE post). I'm also impressed with how people stuck with helping him even though there seemed to be some points of tension like a good book or something, so here's thanks to them even though I wasn't involved there were still little things I picked up from all the posting.

Juntjoo keep up the asking of questions, after researching first of course, and it seems your well on your way to gaining a lot of knowledge on your car and everyone else thanks for taking the time to respond and help this guy out.
Special thanks goes to calan since it seems he stuck with this one the whole way though. I now step off my little box and go back to reading other posts.

Thanks. I kinda feel like im an annoying free loading newb, but the more experience I get the more I can contribute. And as long as other beginners do their research they can learn too from my threads. In fact is reckon my several recent threads could comprise a nice little instructional aid. And yeah thanks to calan and others for their help. This is an awesome community. Glad I found it.

 

[juntjoo]

Mechanic just called. Said finished but no compression which = bent valves.

 

[Calan]

Mechanic just called. Said finished but no compression which = bent valves.

A definite possibility based on your description of the belt failing.

The shop should really do a leak-down test though as it is much better at identifying exactly where cylinder pressure is going and why it is leaking.

 

[juntjoo]

I don't understand when the valves got bent though. The belt never snapped. I was thinking maybe from just recently cranking it b4 discovering the timing was off...

 

[Calan]

I don't understand when the valves got bent though. The belt never snapped. I was thinking maybe from just recently cranking it b4 discovering the timing was off...

If the belt never snapped, when did you discover the timing was off...and how?

I'm still not sure how the t-belt failed from your description, but you could easily have jumped time without the belt snapping.

 

[juntjoo]

The belt partially snapped on my way home just enough to warn me by the flapping sound to stop the car asap. I go home and take cover off and

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find what's pictured. I replace the belt but mechanic shows how I did it wrong. Now here we are. I suppose cranking it recently with the timing off could have bent the valves but I didn't hear any funny noises, though I wouldn't know for sure

 

[Calan]

Depends how far off you were. A tooth or two shouldn't have caused much if any damage, but any more than that and you start pushing the envelope. A lot of it depends on if the head/deck has been shaved in the past and how much valve clearance you have now.

Or you may have just jumped timing a few teeth with half the belt gone.

You may not want to hear this, but something caused that belt to come apart like that. Since it doesn't look like it is drenched in oil ( a common cause of t-belt failure), my next bet would be a worn idler pulley or something else in the t-belt path. Did you inspect everything carefully when you had the belt off?

It's a very good idea to replace all of the timing components (along with the water pump) when you replace the belt, unless you know for sure how many miles they have on them and they pass inspection.

 

[juntjoo]

Yeah, replaced everything

 

[juntjoo]

I'm gonna have to have a mechanic fix my civic so I can continue to work on the eclipse. I guess ill have to learn about the head...

 

[SkyGrowsCold]

Just FYI my timing belt had a groove in it from the bolts being put in incorrectly but the the belt didn't look anything like that and its probably not your case. I also bent all my exhaust valves (I'm still not sure what happened to cause it to jump) but when checking my timing marks the cam gears aligned perfectly but it jumped at the crank.

 

[juntjoo]

Just FYI my timing belt had a groove in it from the bolts being put in incorrectly but the the belt didn't look anything like that and its probably not your case. I also bent all my exhaust valves (I'm still not sure what happened to cause it to jump) but when checking my timing marks the cam gears aligned perfectly but it jumped at the crank.

Hmm.. So is it sitting now or did ya fix it?

 

[juntjoo]

Hey calan, or anyone for that matter, I'm so ignorant on the subject so I don't even know where to start on my valves so can anyone recommend where to start ? I'm figuring your link calan on leak down and compression tests would be a good place to start to get familiar with diagnosing head (and other) issues but I gotta get educated on the mechanics of the head. I believe you posted a link calan on something about how timing works with diagrams of the valve train and pistons. Don't remember how/where I found it but sure ill find it again. So any suggestions on getting me up to speed on this next journey I'm about to embark on would be great. Just a little direction, maybe a site or suggestion on direction I should follow would be helpful. Until then I'll be searching this forum and googling I guess the "valve train"(?). Thanks

 

[juntjoo]

Fyi, the extent to my knowledge of the valve train is how for every two(?) cycles of the pistons' rotations the intake and exhaust valves take turns opening to let fuel/air mixture in and exhaust out, and that there are springs to keep the valves closed and those cam lobes on their tips push the valves open -while springs close em. So just a basic understanding.

Ah... Just found "tech articles" in this forum

 

[Mike02rt]

Though this video is for a "6 bolt" it's an invaluable tool which shows step by step how to generally do the timing belt.
NOTE: When you get to 3:36 of the video, you'll notice that your 93 7 bolt will have different timing marks. No worries just align them as shown in step 23 (the 2nd picture labeled 1993 model) of the vfaq: Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED).
6-Bolt Mitsubishi Timing Belt Replacement - YouTube


There is also a part 2 of the video which finishes it up:
Make sure that your balance shaft is in "phase" correctly with a screw driver otherwise you will have some crazy vibration.
6-Bolt Mitsubishi Timing Belt Replacement Part 2 - YouTube

Oh and btw, You need the timing belt set correctly to have correct results with a leak down test and compression test. Good luck

 

[juntjoo]

Though this video is for a "6 bolt" it's an invaluable tool which shows step by step how to generally do the timing belt.
NOTE: When you get to 3:36 of the video, you'll notice that your 93 7 bolt will have different timing marks. No worries just align them as shown in step 23 (the 2nd picture labeled 1993 model) of the vfaq: Timing Belt VFAQ (Timing Belt TSB - ENHANCED).
6-Bolt Mitsubishi Timing Belt Replacement - YouTube


There is also a part 2 of the video which finishes it up:
Make sure that your balance shaft is in "phase" correctly with a screw driver otherwise you will have some crazy vibration.
6-Bolt Mitsubishi Timing Belt Replacement Part 2 - YouTube

Oh and btw, You need the timing belt set correctly to have correct results with a leak down test and compression test. Good luck

Thanks. It's a little late now in the story. I already failed *boo hoo* and had a pro fix it but to find my valves bent so now I'm on to valves. Did use those videos actually. Didn't work out good enough for me though apparently.

 

[bryanwheat]

I would seriously consider finding someone in your area on here to give you a hand. You are going from a botched simple job to a job that is 20 times bigger with many more things that can fail.

 

[DSM1G90]

Was there any banging sound when the motor was cranking over? Another thing I have to ask is if when the OP turned the crank sprocket by hand to get the six revs out to check if all marks had stayed aligned, did turning the crank sprocket by hand have any sudden resistance - like a piston coming up while a valve was open?

Yet, it's funny that he has ZERO compression in all four cylinders, where if the thing did jump a couple of teeth, it could be just valve timing is off where the bores can't hold compression and the valves are not bent.

Did the mechanic checked the timing on his tests to see how far off the marks were? There is too many variables here to make a concrete conclusion of bent valves.

 

[SkyGrowsCold]

Hmm.. So is it sitting now or did ya fix it?

Currently just waiting on my timing belt kit to arrive the head is all back together and in the car. As for where to look for information looks like you found it in the tech section. There is a lot of good information there so start with your leakdown test then decide which direction you need to go. If you need to take the head off and want all the information you can, like mentioned, read the tech section BogusSVO has some great articles and I used this as an excellent guideline in my rebuild http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/articles-engine-fuel/185236-head-removal-mini-engine-rebuild.html have fun and keep learning.

 

[juntjoo]

Was there any banging sound when the motor was cranking over? Another thing I have to ask is if when the OP turned the crank sprocket by hand to get the six revs out to check if all marks had stayed aligned, did turning the crank sprocket by hand have any sudden resistance - like a piston coming up while a valve was open?

Yet, it's funny that he has ZERO compression in all four cylinders, where if the thing did jump a couple of teeth, it could be just valve timing is off where the bores can't hold compression and the valves are not bent.

Did the mechanic checked the timing on his tests to see how far off the marks were? There is too many variables here to make a concrete conclusion of bent valves.

I never heard any banging but would u necessarily? And as far as my experience could tell I only felt the resistance from the springs. I suppose@ this point I should just get familiar with diagnosing head issues. Then decide what 2 do next. Mechanic suggested I take the head to a machine shop. So I'll start with diagnostics.

 

[juntjoo]

I would seriously consider finding someone in your area on here to give you a hand. You are going from a botched simple job to a job that is 20 times bigger with many more things that can fail.

No you're right. But apparently you can't service your own heads unless you have machine shop equipment right? Any of you guys do your own work on your heads or just minor work? Yeah, I'm just gunna get started with compression and leak down tests