Resolved 95 TSI started tapping/knocking

[Motorcru]

Hello everyone, my name is Ali and I’ve been a huge lurker in the forums since 2009 when I got my first dsm, 95 TSI AWD. Just want to start off saying thank you for allowing me to be a part of such a great community and since then I’ve learned so much from the forums and I am still learning to this day. I love to do my own work on my cars even though I don’t have a place to properly work on them and limits me from really getting to know my motor. Which leads me to my main question.

My 95 TSI has recently started tapping/knocking that sounds like it’s coming from the head and not the lower end. I’ve read up on numerous posts that point to many possibilities as to what it could be. I would like to try to diagnose and repair the motor as it only has 67000 original miles on it, however I do not have a place to do so. Is there anybody in the Los Angeles/ socal region that would be willing to help diagnose and work on the car with me at their place?

I have contacted C&A auto but they are so backed up at the moment and short staffed that they wouldn’t be able to take the car in for another month or so. I am willing to do as much as I am capable of mechanically and more if I have the right teacher and I am also willing to pay for services and storage.

Please let me know if my post is in the appropriate place or not and where would be the best place to post as this is my first post ever after lurking for so long. Thank you I’m advance and sorry for the long post.

 

[Motorcru]

Here is a video of the valve cover off I will rotate the cranks to a full cycle to see if any rockers or lifters are loose or bad.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

Spark plugs look like hell some oil around the two from passenger side, could be from bad gasket seal as I could see small amount of oil dripping down from the top.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Motorcru]

Take the rest of the covers off and you will likely see the problem. You need to check all timing marks.

Thank you I was looking to see what bolts hold the rest of the timing covers and seems like there is one right in front of the motor mount. Will the mount have to be taken out or is there an another way to take it off?

 

[pauleyman]

I wouldn't even rotate it with the belt that loose. Get the covers off an investigate.

Thank you I was looking to see what bolts hold the rest of the timing covers and seems like there is one right in front of the motor mount. Will the mount have to be taken out or is there an another way to take it off?

You have to remove the mount, the accessory belts, ac tensioner and harmonic balancer.

 

[Motorcru]

You have to remove the mount, the accessory belts, ac tensioner and harmonic balancer.

Copy that thank you. I will need to get my jack out from storage to relieve pressure on the mount before continuing, in the mean time I’ll start loosening whatever belts I can before the mount comes off.

Copy that thank you. I will need to get my jack out from storage to relieve pressure on the mount before continuing, in the mean time I’ll start loosening whatever belts I can before the mount comes off.

Ok got the PS and Alternator belts loose. Going to have to hold off until I can get that jack for the motor mount. I’ll update as soon as I start back up on it.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Motorcru]

Hey guys, sorry for being MIA for so long. Just started anew job with the city a hundred miles away from LA so time has been very limited. I got the assembly belts off and was able to get the timing cover off too. Upon rotating the motor the motor will get feel stuck, like it doesn’t want to turn freely anymore, before I can get all my marks to align. I have the plugs out and took a few pics and a video. Seems like if I try to turn with force something worse will happen. Any thoughts and advice to point me in the right direction for my next step would be greatly appreciated. Also I’m pretty sure I shouldn’t rotate counterclockwise to try to alight my marks right? Just wondering if counterclockwise rotation would be the same outcome but don’t want to try it unless it’s safe to do so. Thank you guys.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[waltah]

No, never turn the engine backward to align marks. First, the tensioner does not work right when turning backward so slack in the belt can occur and that means a chance of skipping a tooth. Second, even if you don't skip a tooth the amount of slack in the various belt sections can be wrong making the marks appear to be right when they're not or wrong when they are right.

The first concern I'd have if the torque to rotate the engine seems 'bumpy' (more than normal from the action of the cams) would be that the engine is indeed mechanically mis-timed and a valve is contacting a piston. What to do next you need better advice than I can give so I'll shut up and wait to read it myself!

 

[pauleyman]

Hey guys, sorry for being MIA for so long. Just started anew job with the city a hundred miles away from LA so time has been very limited. I got the assembly belts off and was able to get the timing cover off too. Upon rotating the motor the motor will get feel stuck, like it doesn’t want to turn freely anymore, before I can get all my marks to align. I have the plugs out and took a few pics and a video. Seems like if I try to turn with force something worse will happen. Any thoughts and advice to point me in the right direction for my next step would be greatly appreciated. Also I’m pretty sure I shouldn’t rotate counterclockwise to try to alight my marks right? Just wondering if counterclockwise rotation would be the same outcome but don’t want to try it unless it’s safe to do so. Thank you guys.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You're not going to like this but it looks very out of time to me. The cams turn half speed of crank. That means with every turn of the crank the marks line up and them again with dowels 180 upon the next turn. You can see your cams need about 90 degrees to be dead up. That would be 180 degrees of the crank which puts the crank nowhere near its timing mark as it sits in those pics. Now it's true for all 5 marks to line up properly you have to go through 5 rotations of the crank but the purposes of pure cam timing every other turn of the crank will do. It seems obvious to me what the problem is.
Opinions folks?

 

[DSMPT]

Hard to tell accurately how much degree off but judging by seeing the pics above and as I assume those pics were taken in the same moment, I can see the valve timing is approx 150 degree retarded (20 cam gear teeth) against piston position. With that crank position in the pic above, the cam dowel pin should be around 2 o'clock.

Edit: I just counted better. It seems the valve timing is 120 degree retarded, comparing with the position when you set the timing belt. (16 cam gear teeth off). The cam dowel pin should be at around 1 o'clock with the crank position in the pic above.

 

[pauleyman]

I don't even see how the car could run this far out. Best case scenario you may have slipped when trying to turn over and you need to retime it now.
My suggestion would be to fix the timing and run a compression and leak down test. For sure I wouldn't rotate any more or worse try and start it in its present condition. If you have access to a borescope a look into the cylinders may reveal something. If you have bent valves a better test may be to remove cams for the leakdown test. Then you know for sure all valves should be closed.

 

[Motorcru]

Thanks guys for all the replies, so it seems I’m going to need to take off the timing belt and cams to start digging into the issue. This would be my first time diving into something like this so any advice and tips on where to start, and how I should be approaching this task would be greatly appreciated. I have the Haynes Manuel which I will go over and will check out the newbie section for advice as well. I just want to be sure I’m doing whatever steps are needed in the correct order. Thanks again for all the help, I’ll most likely be researching a ton before I get back into taking anything apart.

 

[pauleyman]

What is your current mechanical skill level? If you are comfortable performing a leak down with cams in place that may be enough. You will for sure need to put the timing back into place first or remove the cams. One or the other.

 

[Motorcru]

What is your current mechanical skill level? If you are comfortable performing a leak down with cams in place that may be enough. You will for sure need to put the timing back into place first or remove the cams. One or the other.

Thanks for the reply, I think I’m proficient in mechanical skill and would like toy try to take it on. I would not be able to take the motor out because I don’t have a hoist, but reading the Haynes manual it seems everything I need to do can be done with the engine in the vehicle.
If I was to put timing back into place to do a leak down test with the cams in, where would I start to get the timing back in place. It seems as though I would have to undo the belt and rest the marks for the oil pump crank and cam gears correct? Also if I wanted to remove the cams, I would still need to take off the timing belt to loosen the tension on the gears in order to remove the lobes as well? The manual doesn’t seem to cover on how to set timing on an out of time motor, unless I’m not looking in the right place. I can only find how to remove the belt, pulleys, tensioner and gears while the motor is in correct time. Any info on how and where to start the job would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the reply.

 

[DSMPT]

I would not be able to take the motor out because I don’t have a hoist, but reading the Haynes manual it seems everything I need to do can be done with the engine in the vehicle.

You don't need to take the engine out.

I would have to undo the belt and rest the marks for the oil pump crank and cam gears correct?

Yes. And also balance shaft.

Also if I wanted to remove the cams, I would still need to take off the timing belt to loosen the tension on the gears in order to remove the lobes as well?

Some people do it by holding the belt position with zip ties. But I don't recommend that since this is your first time. Do it properly by taking your time.

I can only find how to remove the belt, pulleys, tensioner and gears while the motor is in correct time

I recommend you to have the complete FSM like below. That would save a lot of your time in the future.
I made a pdf file for only timing belt section. You can download it by clicking. Maybe this would help you to understand a bit more.
https://www.dsmtuners.com/attachmen...655671/?hash=5edac0c019225d4577c834fe32038df7

 

[pauleyman]

Thanks for the reply, I think I’m proficient in mechanical skill and would like toy try to take it on. I would not be able to take the motor out because I don’t have a hoist, but reading the Haynes manual it seems everything I need to do can be done with the engine in the vehicle.
If I was to put timing back into place to do a leak down test with the cams in, where would I start to get the timing back in place. It seems as though I would have to undo the belt and rest the marks for the oil pump crank and cam gears correct? Also if I wanted to remove the cams, I would still need to take off the timing belt to loosen the tension on the gears in order to remove the lobes as well? The manual doesn’t seem to cover on how to set timing on an out of time motor, unless I’m not looking in the right place. I can only find how to remove the belt, pulleys, tensioner and gears while the motor is in correct time. Any info on how and where to start the job would be greatly appreciated. Thanks again for the reply.

Think of it like this. The pistons can only contact valves at top dead center (TDC). This only happens when the crank is on the mark and when it's 180 degrees from it. If you move it 90 degrees from the mark all the pistons are in the middle of the bores and you can rotate cams as you see fit. Personally if I do it I put the crank about 10 or 15 degrees before TDC so I can get the cams into position then just move crank into position to finalize installing the belt.
Also if you have the pistons away from TDC you could remove the cams if you wish. How to proceed with any testing is up to you. I'm very familiar with setting timing so I would likely put it into time then conduct compression and leakdown tests. Your belt was so loose I suspect you have other problems. Possibly a bad tensioner. You would likely know when you inspect the items under the timing cover. I also happen to own a borescope (remarkably cheap actually) and I would take a look inside the cylinder for signs of damage or contact.

 

[dgdsm]

Did you have a look at the white marks left by whoever worked on the TB last time?
Your timing belt has skipped a tooth.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

 

[Motorcru]

I know this is long overdue, but must be done. Thank you everyone for your input and advice with this issue. I ended up taking it to C&A Auto where Ray was able to diagnose the issue.

As much of you had mentioned above timing had skipped somehow (maybe due to a crack in the valve cover leaking oil onto the belt and gears? Bad tensioner?) Once he reset timing, all symptoms I was having had resolved and thanks to the community, all internals were left undamaged.

Ray ended up doing the full 60k maintenance since we could not identify the actual cause for the slip and would only benefit from it. Tensioners, pulleys, water pump and seals have all been changed out and thankfully it has been roadworthy ever since minus a clutch