1G 93 TSi was running 2 days ago, now will not crank.

[AdroitPostal]

Hi! I recently bought a 1993 Talon TSi AWD. Quick backstory behind the car, it was sitting for 8 years, it's in near stock condition, runs and drives. It lopes a bit on startup, especially when its cold. I believe I need to clean the throttle body and install a new gasket, it looks like its cracked and almost peeling back, however, when it warmed up, it ran and drove with no issues.

I recently drove it to work 2 days ago, as the conditions were bad and I didn't want to drive my FWD car. It was icy in the morning and very wet on the way home. I didn't touch it again until today, when I went to start it and all I got was power to the vehicle. I went to crank and the motor didn't even move. I can hear the fuel pump working, I've checked all the relays/fuses, but am a little stumped. I don't know what could've broken in the 2 days I didn't touch it.

The ignition control module I believe might be the issue, I had the same issue on my 1992 but I'm still open to any ideas or reassurances.

 

[pauleyman]

I went to start it and all I got was power to the vehicle. I went to crank and the motor didn't even move. I can hear the fuel pump working, I've checked all the relays/fuses, but am a little stumped. I don't know what could've broken in the 2 days I didn't touch it.

Not really possible to hear from pump. Motor must be moving for ECU to call for fuel pump circuit. Is the car bone stock and does it have a clutch safety? The button the pressed the switch falls apart sometimes and doesn't work. You can run without it just be unplugging it.

The ignition control module I believe might be the issue, I had the same issue on my 1992 but I'm still open to any ideas or reassurances

The ignition module does not cause no crank. Will cause a no start. Only a few things will cause no cranking at all as the circuit is very basic. You can crank the car even if there is no ECU in it.

 

[AdroitPostal]

ignition module does not cause no crank. Will cause a no start. Only a few things will cause no cranking at all as the circuit is very basic. You can crank the car even if there is no ECU in it.

Ah yes, that's right I do remember a weak crank from my white one when the PTU went. I'll look in my Haynes manual for a wiring diagram to see if I can't start troubleshooting

I looked at the wiring diagram and you're absolutely right, the only thing in the path that could be failing is that clutch safety switch. I appreciate the wise words, you were very helpful.

Not really possible to hear from pump. Motor must be moving for ECU to call for fuel pump circuit. Is the car bone stock and does it have a clutch safety? The button the pressed the switch falls apart sometimes and doesn't work. You can run without it just be unplugging it.

I'll look into this, give me 30 minutes to go see. I see how the ECU makes the fuel pump respond. I'm honestly not that great with electrical work so I'm still learning how it all works, what would be that higher pitched whining I hear when I turn over the key?

 

[pauleyman]

ill look into this, give me 30 minutes to go see. I see how the ECU makes the fuel pump respond. I'm honestly not that great with electrical work so im still learning how it all works, what would be that higher pitched whining i hear when i turn over the key?

No idea unless the car is not stock

 

[We're on Boost]

what would be that higher pitched whining i hear when i turn over the key?

Well, maybe the starter motor is actually running, but the starter drive is broken. If that part is broken, the engine would not move (no crank) but you would hear some whine from the starter motor running. Seems like a possibility.

Here's some starter drives for 1992 Talon turbo.
Oh woops looks like we need starter drives for 1993 Talon turbo.

 

[pauleyman]

Well, maybe the starter motor is actually running, but the starter drive is broken. If that part is broken, the engine would not move (no crank) but you would hear some whine from the starter motor running. Seems like a possibility.

Here's some starter drives for 1992 Talon turbo.
Oh woops looks like we need starter drives for 1993 Talon turbo.

Yes this is a good possibility and would be clearly identified if somebody listens under the hood.

 

[steve]

Motor must be moving for ECU to call for fuel pump circuit.

1G's have two inputs to the fuel pump side of the MPI relay, one from the ECU and one from the ignition switch starter line. When you put the ignition switch in the start position it triggers the Fuel Pump, when the ECU sees CAS pulses it pulls it's line low and holds it until it doesn't see any CAS pulses for about 5 seconds.That's what keeps the pump going.

 

[pauleyman]

1G's have two inputs to the fuel pump side of the MPI relay, one from the ECU and one from the ignition switch starter line. When you put the ignition switch in the start position it triggers the Fuel Pump, when the ECU sees CAS pulses it pulls it's line low and holds it until it doesn't see any CAS pulses for about 5 seconds.That's what keeps the pump going.

The wiser one has spoken.

 

[AdroitPostal]

Well, maybe the starter motor is actually running, but the starter drive is broken. If that part is broken, the engine would not move (no crank) but you would hear some whine from the starter motor running. Seems like a possibility.

Here's some starter drives for 1992 Talon turbo.
Oh woops looks like we need starter drives for 1993 Talon turbo.

Going to look into this today after work, wasn’t sure if I heard a starter, I’ll get buddy to come help me and turn the key while I listen.

1G's have two inputs to the fuel pump side of the MPI relay, one from the ECU and one from the ignition switch starter line. When you put the ignition switch in the start position it triggers the Fuel Pump, when the ECU sees CAS pulses it pulls it's line low and holds it until it doesn't see any CAS pulses for about 5 seconds.That's what keeps the pump going.

So essentially me hearing my fuel pump confirms my CAS is working, or are you saying the CAS is a possible fault

 

[pauleyman]

It should crank. If it isn't that isn't from the CAS. Apparently you do get a fuel pump fire at start position it just doesn't maintain unless you get a CAS signal. Obviously you don't because the car isn't cranking.

 

[steve]

So essentially me hearing my fuel pump confirms my CAS is working, or are you saying the CAS is a possible fault

Neither, I'm just explaining that unlike a 2G the 1G's turn on the fuel pump while the ignition switch is in the start position. As long as the ignition switch is generating that signal and the clutch safety switch is passing it, the MPI relay should turn of the pump. You say you can hear the pump running, which I don't doubt since I can hear mine, it would seem that the Ignition Switch is functioning, the MPI relay is working of the fuel pump side but the starter doesn't seem to be.

Have you checked to see if you're getting battery voltage at the starter solenoid S terminal when your cranking and at the starter B+ terminal all the time? (Edit: added picture since it wasn't clear)

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Although the starter should crank the engine without an ECU present, have you verified that the ECU turns the CEL on for 5 seconds when you turn the ignition on?

Do you have a set of the service manuals for your car? (Haynes manual is not the same)

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Simply check the small spade terminal on the starter first. It's very easy to check as sometimes they come off. It is the "B+" terminal that Steve is talking about. Just check to see If that wire is on the terminal.

 

[We're on Boost]

Simply check the small spade terminal on the starter first. It's very easy to check as sometimes they come off. It is the "B+" terminal that Steve is talking about. Just check to see If that wire is on the terminal.

Don't you mean the "S" terminal? The small flat spade is the "S" terminal in the diagram. I agree though, that's an easy place to start checking things. And the trick of jumpering that terminal directly to the battery + terminal should fire the starter and crank the engine immediately (being very careful of course).

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Yeah I was thinking of the S terminal. That little bugger can come off unexpectedly.

 

[AdroitPostal]

Well, maybe the starter motor is actually running, but the starter drive is broken. If that part is broken, the engine would not move (no crank) but you would hear some whine from the starter motor running. Seems like a possibility. Here's some starter drives for 1992 Talon turbo.
Oh woops looks like we need starter drives for 1993 Talon turbo.

sorry for a late response, was deathly sick the last couple of days. got buddy to help me diagnose, we hear no starter noise when turning key. i believe i may have a loose connection connecting to the starter itself

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Hey, I had that same crud and am just now getting over it too. Did I get it from you, ?
Check the S terminal on the starter.

 

[pauleyman]

sorry for a late response, was deathly sick the last couple of days. got buddy to help me diagnose, we hear no starter noise when turning key. i believe i may have a loose connection connecting to the starter itself

Rule out the clutch neutral safety by simply unplugging it. Of course make sure it's in neutral when trying to start. You no longer need to push clutch after that.

 

[AdroitPostal]

Simply check the small spade terminal on the starter first. It's very easy to check as sometimes they come off. It is the "B+" terminal that Steve is talking about. Just check to see If that wire is on the terminal.

i very much believe this is the issue. however, my engine bay is kind of a mess with wiring and im having troubles finding the spade terminal. is there any previous threads with pictures?

 

[We're on Boost]

Wow I was pretty sick too, just for 24 hours on Friday.
I'm going to be not-on-line for about a week here.
Good luck with it you guys!

 

[AdroitPostal]

Rule out the clutch neutral safety by simply unplugging it. Of course make sure it's in neutral when trying to start. You no longer need to push clutch after that.

ruled out clutch safety, confirmed it was unplugged. it has command start so i assumed it was already but i did check. i checked voltage of starter relay with ignition on on position and got no voltage, so the relay should be ok. currently believe the s terminal on the starter is disconnected, just having trouble finding it with my rats nest of an engine bay

 

[We're on Boost]

currently believe the s terminal on the starter is disconnected, just having trouble finding it with my rats nest of an engine bay

Do you mean you're having trouble finding the S terminal?

 

[We're on Boost]

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[AdroitPostal]

Do you mean you're having trouble finding the S terminal?

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yeah electrical is not my strong suit i'm trying my best here haha
massive help, thank you!

 

[AdroitPostal]

Hey, I had that same crud and am just now getting over it too. Did I get it from you, ?
Check the S terminal on the starter.

checked s terminal on starter. it was still plugged in, tried jumping from the battery to the spade terminal on the starter solenoid. still no crank, i heard a slight kind of ticking for a few seconds every time we tried to start though, before and after the hardwire. could the solenoid itself be the issue?

 

[AdroitPostal]

Hi! I've been trying to diagnose this problem for about a week now. I figured I better make an updated post with my conclusions thus far.

Reading through the manual, I've tested a few different things they've suggested. I took a voltmeter to the Starter Relay and put the ignition in the on position, no voltage passed through. So I conclude that the issue is not coming from Starter Relay.

I have checked the spade terminal on the Starter, the wiring was in good shape and connected. I still tried hardwiring the positive terminal of the battery to the "S" terminal on the starter, and still nothing. No blown fuses, grounds are in good condition, could the problem lie in the starter solenoid itself or would it be more of a rotor assembly issue within the starter itself?

If it was the rotor assembly, would I notice weaker and weaker starts before it went? Because it still seemed to start strong before i parked it.

It was parked for 8 years before i purchased it, I was starting it every day since purchase and trying to work out the old gunk from the motor. I'm honestly stumped.

Is there a way to test the starter solenoid, or would i be better off just replacing the starter itself?