250hp n/t

[eclipsegringin]

ok so ive got a n/t 2gb. ive got a cheap intake and exhaust on it. it seams to flow pretty well i havnt checked exactly how well. the engine puts out about 152 engine hp. i havnt wheel dynod her but i know a stock runs about 109whp so i figure itll be about 113 to the wheels. im trying to get about 200 or more to the wheels. i figure 250-270 engine hp would work for that. i need ideas on how i can achieve this i know its alot of work and money and i should just turbo it but its just kinda a project car im trying to do. i know ill need to work on fuel and more flow. my friend said he can do the internals using some stuff he has. i think hes going to mill some parts from other cars but im not sure exactly. any ideas would help. thanx

 

[Glliw]

This is gonna be a toughie, but to each his own. Your gonna need a good set of cams and a higher compression ratio. Also try to get a better designed intake manifold and header.

 

[elfroggo]

Without a turbo you'd be hard pressed to get almost double the engine output of the stock engine.

Basically trying to get big gains N/T is a costly route and you probably won't be happy with the result.

You'll be trying to squeeze every little bit of power through a built head running high rpms, a high compression motor that pretty much requires race gas, huge cams that hurt driveability etc.

 

[420Adriver]

Not gonna happen.

 

[fr33b1rth]

It's all in the head and cams. If you can get the head to flow really well, a custom ground cam and 10:1 compression, you could do it. You are also going to be needing a 100% custom exhaust header that dumps bigger than 2" plus some fancy engine management. All that is going to be way more money than you want to spend....

Nitrous is your friend! Just remember that your engine has to be strong enough to handle a turbo to handle n2o, and it requires just as much engine management...

 

[420Adriver]

I can guarantee you, you wont get there without nitrous and a completely built engine.

 

[fr33b1rth]

I can guarantee you, you wont get there without nitrous and a completely built engine.

Anything can be done with enough money if you don't care about reving it to 10k and it not being able to idle below 2000 RPM. That also includes heavy modification to the head, custom vlaves and more crap than any sane person that works for a living would want to do... if a NA honda can make 250HP i'm sure we can

Now would it be practical to drive anywhere? No, but it can be done.

Now with Nitrous, those numbers are 100% realistic on a DD.

 

[420Adriver]

No you can't the most they ever got out of one of these engines was 190 whp, there was a big rightup about it. Not sure if he squeezed more out but that was it. And he had everything. Literally.

 

[bullettdsm]

No you can't the most they ever got out of one of these engines was 190 whp, there was a big rightup about it. Not sure if he squeezed more out but that was it. And he had everything. Literally.

You're gonna need to find me that write up. I believe the highest is just short of 170 whp. If you want to see the mods to that car, you might check mine. 250 whp is going to require quite a bit of money and out of the box thinking (if you can get there at all).

MB

 

[VelocitàPaola]

Thank god. I was waiting for you to jump in, Mark.

I think, given Mark's accomplishments for his modifications, you would need a 12+:1 compression ratio, some pretty aggressive cams, and some sort of complete standalone engine management unit. This isn't a feat you can accomplish by slapping on a few bolt-ons or milling "some parts from other cars."

 

[fr33b1rth]

Thank god. I was waiting for you to jump in, Mark.

I think, given Mark's accomplishments for his modifications, you would need a 12+:1 compression ratio, some pretty aggressive cams, and some sort of complete standalone engine management unit. This isn't a feat you can accomplish by slapping on a few bolt-ons or milling "some parts from other cars."

Exactly my point, you will undoubtly have to modify the head beyond reason! Heads are the key to making NA horsepower.

Air+Gas+compression=power

These heads can only flow so much without MAJOR modifications. I'm talking about full on remachineing the entire port and vlaves and so on. Nothing worth your time in my opinion. With enough money and time, it could be done. On top of that you would have to design your own intake manifold. I personally would ditch fuel injection and go with 4 webbers on individual runners, but that is just me. This motor would only have to run at WOT anyways...

Remember, without power adders there is no replacement for displacement! The more a motor displaces, the more air it can get into the combustion chambers, which means the more gas which = power.

Like I said, the first restriction on these motors are the heads. The second is the bore size. These bores are tiny compaired to typical NA motors out there, period. Just for compairison, i built a ford 400sb with about a 4" bore and a little less than a 4" stroke. That motor makes 415HP at 5700RPM and 463 ft/lbs at 3800RPM. That comes out to 1.05hp/cu in. The ford motor is used on the street every day and runs 87 octane. The 4g63 has a 3.3" bore and a 3.4" stroke. Tiny in my book. 122 cu in, so to make 250HP out of that motor you would have 2.05hp/cu in. Not realistic on any kind of motor that could ever see the street. Now just imagine the 420a... You could sleve the block and do some extreme modifications to it, but again Nothing worth your time in my opinion.

It is a proven fact that it is cheaper to make more power with forced induction on these motors. Not that you can't make 250HP, but why try unless you race in a class that is all motor for a living?

This theoretical motor we are talking about would make power at 10k RPM or more, and make nothing below 6-7k or so. So again, for the last time, it isn't worth your time unless you race in a class that is NA only for a living.

 

[viperlp01]

Hey bro i'll be brunt. The cheapest way to that hp is a turbo kit. You'll puch that motor to the limits if you don't turbo charge it. Plus it sounds sweet and the girls love the chrome piping but anyways that is my advise- rebuild if needed and custom turbo kit running about what 9 psi safely(correct me if im wrong)

 

[Locke]

It may be possible if you redesigned the majority of the motor. But then it wouldnt be a 420a anymore, would it?

If you want larger NA power, look into the 2.4l swap. Its not painless, but not known to be horribly difficult either. Mod that. You'd have better luck.

 

[dr1665]

It may be possible if you redesigned the majority of the motor. But then it wouldnt be a 420a anymore, would it?

If you want larger NA power, look into the 2.4l swap. Its not painless, but not known to be horribly difficult either. Mod that. You'd have better luck.

Sage advice. If you're looking for all motor power and don't care about being the most powerful/fastest with stock displacement (read: bullettdsm, above), then the 2.4 install will certainly put you in the right direction.

To get just to the 200whpNA 2.0L mark is going to take, based on my understanding of Mark and my build sheets:

-11.0:1 CR minimum
-redline somewhere above 10krpm
-Crower Stage 3 cams or better (or equivalent)

I currently run C2 cams and a lot of portwork. Although untested, I suspect my car is within about ten whp (on the lower side, due to lack of tuning) of Mark's. Even with 10.5:1CR, my car doesn't "wake up" until above 3000rpm. With that in mind, a 200whp, stock displacement, all motor 2GNT is going to be a turd below 3500rpm, and that's where you do most of your driving with a daily driver.

Now, if you want to build a purpose-built track-only car, then go for it, but you're looking at an easy $10,000 to build this and then you're still going to be pushing 200-225whp without power adders or forced induction.

 

[Defiant]

Getting more than 1 horsepower per cubic inch is an old quest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_engine
Doing it with a comfortably streetable engine is still very, very difficult without restorting to "cheat" like supercharging or nitrous.

 

[dr1665]

Getting more than 1 horsepower per cubic inch is an old quest:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyper_engine
Doing it with a comfortably streetable engine is still very, very difficult without restorting to "cheat" like supercharging or nitrous.

Interesting read, however a 122cu.in. 420A in stock trim makes 140hp. That's roughly 1.15hp/cu.in.. Not too shabby on that 87 octane stuff, by that article. Given Mark, who's making 170whp, likely pushing the 200bhp mark, he'd be pushing more than 1.63hp/cu.in..

Gotta love specific output, high-revving engines. Back in the days of poppet valves and pushrods, I bet 7000rpm redlines were considered the stuff of the future!

 

[Defiant]

Napier Sabre. Sleeve valves.

The next Big Thing for engines will be getting rid of camshafts. Then you'll see output, flexibility, mileage and emissions all go through immense changes.

 

[kiggly]

Dodge was making a little better than 300hp from their 2.0l DOHC platform (the other head though, not the 420a version) back in the late 90's in their touring car program. Revlimit in that series was 8500rpm. Look up Reynard, they maintained the vehicles - it was the Stratus NATCC program.

Kevin

 

[KazooGS-T]

You're gonna need to find me that write up. I believe the highest is just short of 170 whp. If you want to see the mods to that car, you might check mine. 250 whp is going to require quite a bit of money and out of the box thinking (if you can get there at all).

MB

I've gotten up to 151.2 whp, but that is with some EXTENSIVE tuning. And I don't have higher c.r. pistons. To get 200 whp, all motor, is going to be an enourmous task, that will suck up way too much money. I have 151.2 right now, and after this weekend should be at about 250 whp, without turbo

 

[Blitzeclips]

I've gotten up to 151.2 whp, but that is with some EXTENSIVE tuning. And I don't have higher c.r. pistons. To get 200 whp, all motor, is going to be an enourmous task, that will suck up way too much money. I have 151.2 right now, and after this weekend should be at about 250 whp, without turbo

You're using nitrous. It's not ALL-MOTOR anymore. You would win the WHP by default, although it's not even in the same category...

You may need slips for that claim too BTW. Matt knows his sh*t and I'm sure has taken account everything and anything ten-fold for more power...

So you may have to prove that...

 

[Elvenhome21]

the head work is important but lightning the crank/rotating assembly and flywheel is just as important

 

[Blitzeclips]

Most HP is lost through power transfer in the drivetrain. If you can find a way to minimize the power lost this way, then you'll unleash dramatic amounts of HP. Thus the rotating assembling getting worked, to relieve load from the motor. Also you'll find this by using a lighter then OEM flywheel. This will create less weight for the rotation and thus creating faster response and freed power. Hope I worded that right for you guys..

 

[Elvenhome21]

well heres the perfect example, by remove just 6lbs, 3lbs per wheel from the outer shells of the two drive rims It was worth 6 hp on a chassis dyno. THat was with 15 steel wheels, just think of a 17 or 18in wheel with a heavy outer shell. now lighten the other two wheels and theoretically you will have a total gain of 12 hp and unsprung weight.

Oh and is this for a street car or drag racing road racing