1g suspension solutions

[tstkl]

I have been looking into stopping my car from whinning constantly. let me give you some insight into try to make my car turn. I have found that the best analogy for my car is this, she drives just like a jack rabbit, very fast, and HOPPING all around. My struts are completely dead, I did a u turn at about 30 mph the other day, and just kept sliding. It was 4 lanes (two on both sides) and going from the far side to the other, I almost ended up off roading. I was slowing down the whole time as well. I entered the turn at about 40 with my foot on the brakes, ended at about 2 mph, hanging off the edge.

enough, lets get to the point:
I've been looking for a solution to my suspension problems, and I want something that handles REALLY well, but I don't have much money right now. I would like some jic, but I'm wondering if its worth waiting like a year just to get them, or if something similar could be found.

1. jic about 1850, I install everything, so thats free
2. eibach prokit and kyb agx, about 550 off ebay
3. koni yellows with ground controls? Im not sure about the ground controls, but thats what it sounds like people use. my friend is buying a parts car, and It currently has some koni's on it he'll sell me for cheap. its fwd, so I would have to sell the rear ones and buy new rear's and the ground controls, dunno how much those cost, but think 500 for the fronts and rears, then however much i can find the rears for -however much I can sell the rear fwd's for. plus the ground controls.

now is it worth it to spend all that money on koni's and ground controls? should I go with something besides ground control to go with the koni's? should I save up for the jic?

the tires suck, but that can always change with money, I would like to stop the hopping/SCREACHING my car makes every second I drive it. My suspension is louder than my catless, mufflerless exhaust. And after every bump, I hear squeaking like non other.

wait it out or go cheaper?

 

[Dream On]

Get what you want, that meets your goals. Don't make the mistake of buying twice.

 

[tstkl]

sounds good, does the jic come with camber plates? what else should I get with them. I would like to get some poly bushings all around, and later on in life a stiff rear sway bar. anything missing from this short of strut tower bars, front sway bar, and some grippy tires with lightweight rims?

 

[stirpicult]

sounds good, does the jic come with camber plates? what else should I get with them. I would like to get some poly bushings all around, and later on in life a stiff rear sway bar. anything missing from this short of strut tower bars, front sway bar, and some grippy tires with lightweight rims?

i have gc's with konis (shortened in the front), gc camber/caster plates on the front, and ingall's rear control arms. i am in love with this set-up.

strut bars aren't really needed, and a front sway bar is not worth the effort.

no matter what you go with, bet on needing something to fix the camber in the rear.

 

[Zero Bar]

The JIC's come with just about everything you need, not sure about rear camber plates though. I have the GC/AGX setup with front/rear ST swaybars, front strut bar, and poly bushings, I don't think the front swaybar is probably worth the cost, it doesn't help much. Rear sway bar I'd say is a must, it helps a ton. I like the strut bars, they make a difference in stiffening the chassis. The setup I have is very nice but I'm saving for the JIC's right now.

 

[stirpicult]

from a vendor's website...
"Pillow Ball Aluminum Camber Adjustable Upper Amount Plates"
so yes.

the reason i went with ground control is the ability to get my own spring rates, and change them later if i want. in case you go with the gc/koni set-up, do a 7inch spring in the front with an 8 inch spring in the rear. this will give you more height adjustability in the rear.

 

[tstkl]

from a vendor's website...
"Pillow Ball Aluminum Camber Adjustable Upper Amount Plates"
so yes.

the reason i went with ground control is the ability to get my own spring rates, and change them later if i want. in case you go with the gc/koni set-up, do a 7inch spring in the front with an 8 inch spring in the rear. this will give you more height adjustability in the rear.

spring rate is constant for a given spring, you can change the dampening and the height tho.

 

[pkieley]

from a vendor's website...
"Pillow Ball Aluminum Camber Adjustable Upper Amount Plates"
so yes.

The rears are pillow ball but not camber adjustable. You will need the Ingalls control arm or a bushing kit like Whiteline's.

Phil

 

[stirpicult]

spring rate is constant for a given spring, you can change the dampening and the height tho.

right, but 50 bucks gets you 2 new ones. hence

the reason i went with ground control is the ability to get my own spring rates, and change them later if i want.

The rears are pillow ball but not camber adjustable. You will need the Ingalls control arm or a bushing kit like Whiteline's.

Phil

why would anyone think that there could be a camber adjustment at the top of a shock?

 

[tstkl]

well, I talked to my boss about letting me install whatever suspension I ended up going for free where I work, he said, "remember, before you buy anything, see if I can get you it for cheaper. I can get you ANY part for wholesale price, -10%." thats my employee discount. so if the wholesale for the jic flta2's is 1800 (vs 1850 new), I get them for 1620. sweet... free install too.

 

[tstkl]

whoa, just noticed this:

http://www.muellerized.com/products.html

4th product, 4700.

I know I might just be being a stupid noob in thinking that the more expensive product is better, but the things I have heard about mueller have been so good I think that those coil overs would probably be worth the money. Does anyone have them? Who makes them? Are they just a completely custom kit by john himself?

edit: thought that said dsm, not dms, are those coil overs even for our cars, or are those evo only coil overs? Ill probably just stick with the jic's anyways. 4700 is a little pricy,

 

[PSiDAWD]

whoa, just noticed this:

http://www.muellerized.com/products.html

4th product, 4700.

I know I might just be being a stupid noob in thinking that the more expensive product is better, but the things I have heard about mueller have been so good I think that those coil overs would probably be worth the money. Does anyone have them? Who makes them? Are they just a completely custom kit by john himself?

edit: thought that said dsm, not dms, are those coil overs even for our cars, or are those evo only coil overs? Ill probably just stick with the jic's anyways. 4700 is a little pricy,

just remember JICs and other race susupensions out there has so much adjustability that it could become a nightmare tyring to dial in by yourself, youll be wasting your money if you have JICs thats not properly set up. I suggest getting one straight from RRE with the proper spring rates and somewhat preadjusted.

If you want something just for around town/canyons and occasional trips to the track I suggest going with pro kit/AGX combo and a rear sway bar. You can acheive negative camber for the front without a camber plate.

 

[Eagle 5]

from a vendor's website...
"Pillow Ball Aluminum Camber Adjustable Upper Amount Plates"
so yes.

the reason i went with ground control is the ability to get my own spring rates, and change them later if i want. in case you go with the gc/koni set-up, do a 7inch spring in the front with an 8 inch spring in the rear. this will give you more height adjustability in the rear.

I believe you mean 6 inch up front and 7 inch in the rear. GC sent the wrong spring rates the first time, so when they sent the next set they sent the wrong from spring size. I had to lower the front height adjuster an inch just so the 7 inch spring would fit with the Koni at full extension. So, I've lost an inch of adjustability up front but doesnt bother me too much because I 1) only plan to lower around an inch -1.25 inches, and 2) plan to get hyperco springs to replace the GC's anyway eventually.


For the rear, if you want to adjust camber, you can buy the ingalls control arms, or make your own. Underradar92 made his own and I bought the parts to make my own yesterday. Nice weekend project coming up. I was going to make mine a little differently but decided to make them the same way he did. later on I make remake the actual arm though. But you can adjust camber with them and actually its quite cheaper than buying the ingalls arms.

 

[Ludachris]

Lot's of questions you have. My question for you - what will you be doing with the car? Without knowing that everyone here is just making general recommendations based off assumptions. How serious are you going to be?

I use my car for open track days mostly, very little street driving, some autocross, and an occasional day at the drag strip. I chose the Ground Control kit and finally stepped up to Koni in front, after using AGX and GR-2. I still have AGX in the rear but will upgrade to Koni at some point.

The Ground Control kit allows you to swap out the springs when you want to change the rates, as someone specified above. The Konis are a great choice for this kit because they're the only piece on the market that was designed for a lowered suspension. Put an AGX on the car when it's lowered more than 1" and they won't last very long. The Koni is just a better product.

I would go JIC if I was going to race the car competitively. And maybe I'll eventually change over as I get into the NASA Time Trials series and get more serious. But for now, I have plenty of flexibility with my Ground Control setup as far as spring rates go. I just need some camber adjustability (camber plates) that I can play with at the track. I feel that my setup is great for the "semi-serious" guys who want to do a good amount of track events but aren't yet looking to go full competition.

I have front and rear strut bars even though it's been said they don't do much. Once I put a cage in I'll get rid of the rear strut bar. I have a rear RMDSM swaybar, engery suspension poly bushings throughout, welded rear toe links, boxed rear control arms, Whiteline adjustable upper rear control arm bushings, adjustable front camber bolts, and I'll be going with stiffer Eibach springs front and back soon.

 

[Eagle 5]

Ludachris, when you say boxed rear control arms, did you just weld a piece of sheet metal onto the stock arm to box it in instead of it being a u shape? Or did you do something different? I thought the stock arms were already closed in, can't remember off the top of my head though.

 

[Ludachris]

Ludachris, when you say boxed rear control arms, did you just weld a piece of sheet metal onto the stock arm to box it in instead of it being a u shape? Or did you do something different? I thought the stock arms were already closed in, can't remember off the top of my head though.

Yes, the stock rear control arm uses a channel design. I simply created a template with cardboard and had my buddy cut the steel and weld it. Then I filled the open ends with expanding foam to keep water out and painted it with several coats of paint. I did this with upper and lower rear control arms. I felt this would be a superior solution than the Ingalls adjustable arms, and I was able to gain adjustability through the Whiteline bushings.

 

[tstkl]

well, after talking to/riding in the following cars:
A 240sx with jic flt a-2s, a 240sx with tein ss and that electronic adjustable BS (sr20det), two m3's with tc kline full coil over suspensions, a 2003 wrx with jic flt a-2s, and a m3 with dinan stage 3 suspension, I think I don't want to waste my time/money with some shock/adjustable spring combo that "will do just fine". The lack of bodyroll and confidence gained with a fully adjustable full coil over suspension is what I want. I personally will be saving up (as this will be my next mod after I get new tires,... due to.... lets just say tire wear... on my old yoka e100s tires. I'll probably get 245's or 255's.) and taking the car down to rre for fitment/custom spring rates. I know the evo jic flt a-2s are 19xx from them with custom spring rates, but does anyone know what they charger for dsm's? Also, even though I can install them myself, I would like to get them to do the adjusting, since they probably know just a tad bit more about suspensions than I do... Has anyone done this, and know how much it costs? I don't want to go down there and show up with no money for tax or something, although I guess I do have a credit card now... so its not such a big deal. I just hate being in debt and perfer to have all the money there for me when I need it.


now to pick which tires to get.... damn, as if picking the suspension was hard enough.... Although, I guess it shouldn't be too hard as I don't drive in the rain, so all the wet tire tread patterns are out of the question.

 

[eclipse2via]

Here's some RRE JIC info:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/jicinfo.htm

As far as the GC with AGX struts there is no way you can really have adequate suspension travel on a 6" front spring. I was always smashed down on the bump stops, and that's not a recipe for good handling. I'm not sure of the differences with Koni's. I run 8" front and 7" rear with AGX. They have lasted 4 or 5 years of mixed street and trackdays.

If you going to spend $5k on those Mueller coilovers then those remote reservoir Ohlins or Motons are the best. DMS makes okay rally struts but plan on a lot of expensive rebuilds.

 

[tstkl]

those are for evos anyways, and Im not spending 5k on suspension until I see a way of making it back through racing the car. Or if I get a hella good job, which probably won't happen until after college, if that.


thanks for the link though

 

[drivemusicnow]

There are a fair number of threads about this. You essentially have a few options:

1) Bite the bullet and pay for good parts. Decide between the JICs and the HotBits setups. Both have their advantages, my personal choice is/will be the HotBits kit.

2) Spend a little more time, a little less money, and possibly end up with a similarly well handling car through the use of Koni adjustables (or pay for the double adjustables) and hypercoil springs. Buy the camber plates from RRE, (search for the DG thread about 1gs...)

3) Get lucky with a set of cheaper coilovers, possibly have the shocks revalved with better parts and dyno'd until you get decent results. Could work, Could suck, I don't think anyone has gone this route.

Look up the JIC vs Hotbits thread I made a while back. there is a lot of good information in there.


Number one priority for you is, while you save up the money, learn about suspension dynamics, and how different valving, springrates, shock, adjustability helps/hurts a street or track car. Best way to make sure you are getting the best part per dollar is to know exactly what the parts do.

 

[Eagle 5]

Here's some RRE JIC info:

http://www.roadraceengineering.com/jicinfo.htm

As far as the GC with AGX struts there is no way you can really have adequate suspension travel on a 6" front spring. I was always smashed down on the bump stops, and that's not a recipe for good handling. I'm not sure of the differences with Koni's. I run 8" front and 7" rear with AGX. They have lasted 4 or 5 years of mixed street and trackdays.

If you going to spend $5k on those Mueller coilovers then those remote reservoir Ohlins or Motons are the best. DMS makes okay rally struts but plan on a lot of expensive rebuilds.

The konis front shock was meant for a lowered car. The piston shaft is (i believe) an inch shorter than stock. This makes it better suited for lowered cars. You can drop the car down some and the shock is not being pushed in as far. Also, the mounting point on the shock for the spring perch could be different as well so that could make up for the difference in height.

Now I also run 500 lb front and 400 lb rear springs with the konis. So meeting up with the bumpstops doesnt happen (not yet at least). Now at the moment I don't have the front bumpstops in as mine were trashed and at the time it was my daily driver. But it is also still at stock height. After I finish my rear control arms I will lower the car finally, but probably only an inch.

 

[3literpwr]

Hotbits can be had in the 1500-2000 range depending on single or double adjustable and with out with out mounts... They have HUGE ranges of damping adjustment and they can take the abuse a 2900lbs open class rally car can give them...

Remeber springs dont make your car stiff... The damper does!

Regards
LP
Hotbits Tuning USA
5869802543

 

[Ludachris]

well, after talking to/riding in the following cars:
A 240sx with jic flt a-2s, a 240sx with tein ss and that electronic adjustable BS (sr20det), two m3's with tc kline full coil over suspensions, a 2003 wrx with jic flt a-2s, and a m3 with dinan stage 3 suspension, I think I don't want to waste my time/money with some shock/adjustable spring combo that "will do just fine". The lack of bodyroll and confidence gained with a fully adjustable full coil over suspension is what I want. I personally will be saving up (as this will be my next mod after I get new tires,... due to.... lets just say tire wear... on my old yoka e100s tires. I'll probably get 245's or 255's.) and taking the car down to rre for fitment/custom spring rates. I know the evo jic flt a-2s are 19xx from them with custom spring rates, but does anyone know what they charger for dsm's? Also, even though I can install them myself, I would like to get them to do the adjusting, since they probably know just a tad bit more about suspensions than I do... Has anyone done this, and know how much it costs? I don't want to go down there and show up with no money for tax or something, although I guess I do have a credit card now... so its not such a big deal. I just hate being in debt and perfer to have all the money there for me when I need it.


now to pick which tires to get.... damn, as if picking the suspension was hard enough.... Although, I guess it shouldn't be too hard as I don't drive in the rain, so all the wet tire tread patterns are out of the question.

Hey man, if you got the cash, you can't go wrong with full coilovers. I was just giving you a less expensive option that will hold up great at the track until you started competing and learned how to tune your own suspension. Take a ride in a car with Konis and GC's and see what you think. I have a good friend with an E46 M3 using the same setup and was turned on to it by other M3 guys in the racing world. It's actually not an inferior setup, it just has less adjustability than the full coilovers. It's a completely capable setup for the track for those who aren't yet ready for so much adjustment.

Something to keep in mind - more adjustability is only useful if you're planning to change your settings from track to track. The only benefit of having so many adjustment settings is if you are able to adjust them at each venue to set the car up for that particular track. If you're not planning on changing your settings at every event you go to to maximize the cars handling, it's overkill and you're wasting your cash on a setup in which you're not getting the full benefit from.

Most people in here probably won't be able to benefit from a full coilover over a Koni/GC setup. I'd guess that many wouldn't even be able to tell the difference when both kits are set up correctly.

 

[jtmcinder]

The konis front shock was meant for a lowered car. The piston shaft is (i believe) an inch shorter than stock.

That probably isn't true. When a shock is shortened by "one inch" (in the usual way), they take half-an-inch off the shaft and half-an-inch off the body. In other words, what was shortened by one inch was the fully-extended length. If you really want to gain a full inch of bump travel, you have to ask them to shorten the shock by two inches.

Just so people know. I wouldn't want anyone reading this to have to pay for it twice.

- Jtoby

 

[3literpwr]

A set with good adjustment ranges is rather nice as you can make your car soft for everyday driving and much more stiff for auto-x, track days or what ever you like...
Also the large range can allow bigger spring rate changes without the need to revalve the dampers... When I do engine mapping that requires me to drive on the street I soften up my setup to the max... an underdamped 500lbs/in spring can be quite fine for daily driving.... Also keep in mind that your tire choice can have an effect on your damper and spring choices.... I cannot run the spring rate I would like with my Yokohama gravel tires, but can run them on pirelli gravels... The same goes for a street tire and a proper racing slick or DOT race tire for a track day or autox

LP