16g/14b?

[93RS]

I recently put a 3" o2 eliminator DP and 3" from there back. No cat, no muffler, no restriction!!! It sounds great and preforms great don't get me wrong but it does boost creep like crazy! If I would of done my research before buying the biggest baddest pipe I could find I would have read a million times that my particular set up would lead to creep. Well, I figured it out the hard way and now I'm afraid I'm gonna blow it up someday I'm not paying attention. I don't wanna go with an EWG setup nor do I want to take my 14b apart and not be able to put it back together til the porting is done. So I have an Ebay 16g turbo sitting in my garage and since I know its never going to be good for its intended purpose, I'm thinking I could take the hot side from the Ebay turbo, port it, and put it on my 14b. I've read and researched and many threads said you can do it. My questions are:
1) Will I have to port it or is it a 7cm housing?
2) Could I just buy a 7cm housing (where), throw it on, and that cure the creep? Or do 7cm housings still need to be ported?
3) When taking off the "hotside" of the turbo am I going to need any gaskets, seals, or other possible misc. parts (DD, will only have a weekend to do it in)
4) I believe I read somewhere that you can remove the hotside with the turbo still installed, True?
5) Is taking the hotside of my turbo, with 230,000 miles on it, an excuse for a rebuild?
6) How difficult is rebuilding my 14b (1-10), where's suggested to buy a rebuild kit, and how expensive is it?
7) What am I all going to break? How hard is Murphy's Law going to bend me over?
Sorry for the book and vague title, just wasn't sure what to call this

 

[JusMX141]

The Evo III-spec turbine housings are widely-known to creep worse than any other housing available for TD05H turbos because of the larger-than-stock outlet. If you decide to run this and you're already having prior issues with creep, have mercy.

1) Will I have to port it or is it a 7cm housing?

It is a 7cm2 housing, but port the hell out of the wastegate hole if you use this housing on a 14B.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/309775-ebay-exhaust-housing.html

2) Could I just buy a 7cm housing (where), throw it on, and that cure the creep? Or do 7cm housings still need to be ported?

A 7cm2 housing will creep worse than a 6cm2 housing because it is less-restrictive, encouraging more airflow to bypass the wastegate hole and continue through the turbine housing.

3) When taking off the "hotside" of the turbo am I going to need any gaskets, seals, or other possible misc. parts (DD, will only have a weekend to do it in)

Not unless you damage the turbine wheel removing the housing. It's been done.

4) I believe I read somewhere that you can remove the hotside with the turbo still installed, True?

Not sure why you'd want to considering the only thing holding the turbo in the car at that point would be the oil and coolant lines.

5) Is taking the hotside of my turbo, with 230,000 miles on it, an excuse for a rebuild?

At 230,000 miles, anything is an excuse to rebuild.

6) How difficult is rebuilding my 14b (1-10), where's suggested to buy a rebuild kit, and how expensive is it?

If you have proper tools, 1....if not, 10. Anywhere but Chinese eBay parts.

7) What am I all going to break? How hard is Murphy's Law going to bend me over?

Not even going there.

 

[Dsmkauai]

1. Yes 7cm or evo3 turbine housing is a great upgrade (I believe the fastest 14b guy is using a evo3 housing), but it won't help your creep might even make it worse. 2. You will need mani to turbine housing gasket 7cm or for whatever housing you get, and o2 housing gasket and o2 housing to downpipe gasket, and new copper crush washers and oil return to pan gasket 3. It might be hard to get the back o2 housing bolt out of the turbine housing. It also won't be good having the chra just hanging and only supported by the oil return, I would pull the whole turbo. 4. Its possible to do but might be a pain if bolts are really tight. In that case you might end up pulling the whole turbo anyway with o2 housing and getting it off on the ground. 5. With 200+k I would rebuild the turbo and I bet the oil seals are leaking alittle and the heat shield caked with carbon build up . 6. Gpopshop.com and I've rebuilt several 14b's myself with no problems. Getting the proper rebuilt kit makes a big diff I also like to order a new heat shield while I'm at it. And always will port and polish the turbine housing while its off. I'm actually rebuilding and porting 2 at my shop right now for a couple friends! It is recommended to have the rotating assembly balanced if you change anything to it, also good to make sure the turbo is at peak performance and up for the task of boosting! 7. I would soak all the bolts ahead of time and with the miles on your car I would expect 1 or to bolts to give a hard time. Usually the mani to tubrine housing bolts break. A small trick you can do but I will warn can hurt if not carfull so do at your own risk. You can run the car for a bit till its hot which will soften the bolts/nuts alittle and allow them to lossen easier. This way you can crack them all loose hopefully without any breaking. Then once cracked you can let it cool off so you don't burn yourself! Maybe check your wastage it could have a worn spring. Neither my gvr4 14b or my gst 16g have creep issues both running 18-20psi boost and both on 3" exhaust. I did have spike issues with my 16g being in the 10cm housing. The solution was using a holset acuator holds boost perfect at 20psi maybe why I have no creep issues with it! Before I changed the acuator boost was all over and hard to control!

 

[1G Eclipse94928]

Why are you boost creeping? :O I had no boost creap on stock-18psi 14B with 7cm housing. Now running the S16G with 7cm housing ported and no creep either. Maybe your wastegate is broken?

 

[JusMX141]

Why are you boost creeping?

Because he neglected to do any of the solutions listed in the bold red text on the first page of the giant merged boost creep thread.

 

[93RS]

Thanks for the fast replies! So I guess Im a little confused now... I've read many places that porting the turbo is the least expensive? When I refer to the "hotside" Im talkin the side that meets the o2 housing. Or in my case my o2 eliminator. Dsmkauai, could you please go into a little more detail on the "actuator method"? Obviously the turbo is going to have to come off along with the WG actuator but what modifications am I going to have to do? and what am I going to have to buy? Im basically looking for the easiest, and least expensive solution to cure my horrible creep. My turbo was off last winter, because I was going to run that Ebay 16g but thought against it, so I shouldn't have too many problems there. Im more worried about breaking shit when rebuilding the turbo or overdoing porting. I was hoping porting the exhaust side of the turbo would work, especially if I can port my Ebay exhaust side and just reinstall on my turbo. Im thinking about a rebuild kit pretty seriously my problem is I dont know where I would have it balanced or a trusted company to purchase it from. I watched a video on youtube about a 16g rebuild and it didnt seem too bad, rebuilding something that spins so fast just kind of intimidates me.

 

[Dsmkauai]

^^ hahaha I guess it helps that I take alittle more time porting my housings and smooth and open up the path to the wastgate flapper more!! Even running open downpipe at the track and no creep on my gvr4's 14b.

Buy a rebuild kit from gpopshop.com like I already said. If you want it rebuilt correctly and want to have no issues or concerns after, send it to jusmix141 who just posted here, he is the turbo man and who I gained most of my rebuild knowledge from!
This is my favorite porting tool! Nice and long to get deep and the double carbide bit cuts fast! This is a housing I'm porting the step out of and doing my work around the wastegate entry and then will polish!

 

[93RS]

Now that you say no creeping with open downpipe, I wasn't creeping when I was running open downpipe. Took a little longer for boost to come on and it felt like I lost some low end power. Put my 3" DP back on, regained my low end, and she creeps now...

So basically take the ebay exhaust side, port it, and rebuild my turbo. Is there an aftermarket exhaust side that I could buy that would fix the creep? Dsmkauai, you said something about a better actuator from Holset? I cant seem to find anything that looks applicable?

 

[Dsmkauai]

Ya the holset acuator is off a hx35 I believe and needs to be modded alittle ( shorten shaft and thread for adjustment ability) and then you have to make your own bracket to mount to turbo, which you can see my simple yet perfect working solution! I actually got the idea and actuator from jusmx141 and made my own bracket. And the guy from turbo lab on here sells new 7cm housing for like $120 I think. Or search the classifieds for one or use your eBay one if it fits right! The only thing you should know about using the holset acuator is it is much stronger and will hold more boost. Mine is adjustable which helps but just know your lowest boost will be like 14-16 psi possibly. Since the acuator has a tighter spring inside your lowest boost might not be so low. For me it was perfect I was shooting for 20psi up top and maybe 16-18 for first gear (to help launch my fwd!) I think the way I have it in the pic I was seeing 15psi with my boost controller zero'd out (gizzmo ms-ibc). If you don't mind that and have the supporting mods to run higher boost than its hands down one of the best mods for a 14b-16g-20g turbo!! but again I did this mod to help control boost and eliminate boost spikes not really for creep issues, which I never had problems with anyway! You can always use a vac pump and test your actuator to see how its working. Maybe the spring inside is all rusted and very slowly and barely able to open your wastgate I don't know anything is possible.

 

[JusMX141]

You don't need to worry about any fancy actuator right now. Just port the wastegate hole as large as you can go and the flapper can still seal properly, and port the inlet of the turbine housing to direct airflow toward the wastegate hole....like this FP Red:

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Compare how much of the wastegate hole is visible in that photo to this unported aftermarket turbine housing similar to the one on your knockoff 16G:

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[93RS]

Ok so a hx35 actuator and a 7cm housing... Should I port that housing? Lots of other people change the flapper size.. Ive seen 34,38, and 40. Whats the best option with this many miles, Im not going crazy 275-300hp range? Other then porting what will need to be modified to put in a bigger flapper?

 

[Dsmkauai]

Jus it actually looks like the ported housing makes more of a wall or little shelf for the exhaust gas's to hit as it goes into the housing. Seems like that's helping get more air directed and out the wastegate hole. Compared to your second pic there isn't anything in the way and more goes straight down past the hole! To the o.p. yes port work will help especially opening up the path to the wastgate. You can use a bigger wastgate flapper I think 38mm is the next biggest. I really don't think you need all that to hit your goal. I have stock flapper in my gvr4 and no creep issues just a nicely ported and polished tubrine housing!

 

[93RS]

What will i have to modify other then porting for the bigger flapper? Or does it just bolt up and I just gotta make room for it? Ive owned 10 Dsm's, more turbo then non, so Im feeling like a total newb This is my first Dsm that has stayed alive long enough to mod. Ive been reading that giant merged thread and I think Im gonna take my ebay turbo apart and port that and modify what ever I have to for the 38mm flapper. I appreciate all your guys help.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Well you need a flapper and to port the hole in the turbine housings wastgate passage bigger to match the new flapper! As far as installing in not sure exactly justin probably knows better. I know there is a like little metal circle clip holding the flapper to the arm. I imagine that needs to be taken off and then you put the new flapper and a new circle clip (whatever it's called it is ) on and good to go!

 

[93RS]

Perfect!! Thank you for all your help!! Ill port what I can, rebuild the turbo and install a 38 mm flapper. One last question... If all of that doesn't fix my problem, is the hx35 actuator doable with the turbo installed? Or will I have to pull it again?

 

[Dsmkauai]

Its do able with it on the car for sure, mine was when I did it! The biggest thing is making the bracket but as you can see mine is very simple. Just needs 5 holes drilled in it in the correct spots and to be cut/trimmed correctly, and be made from thick enough metal that won't bend on you. The other thing is modding the length, I got mine from Justin and he did this for me and added the threaded portion, atleast I think he did . If you need to do this yourself I'm sure you can use the old oem actuator to help as a guide for the length. How does the acuator look on the turbo? I would inspect while you have it out and possible replace if its all rusted out. You can pull on the arm alittle and feel if its tight or smooth or like I said use a vac pump to see it operate open and closed. It could be getting hung up and not opening the flapper all the way!

 

[93RS]

I remember when I had the turbo off last time the arm was alot easier to move then the ebay one i was gonna put on... I think im gonna disconnect the arm and see what it does on WG only. Until I get a porting tool Im probably going to turn my boost down to 8 psi and maybe the creep wont come on til later in the rpms. I seen it worked for some and not so much for others but worth a shot while I work up the courage for a turbo rebuild.

 

[Dsmkauai]

Are you having creep or spike issues? Boost spikes is when your at like wot and say you have boost set to 15psi and it gets to 15 and just shoots to 20psi instead then eventually settles back down alittle. Creep is when your wanting like 15psi and wot its there but slowly starts rising. Just want to make sure that all, not saying you don't understand the diff just making sure bro! Read this for more definition I guess ! http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...rcooler/96678-boost-spike-vs-boost-creep.html

 

[93RS]

I have my boost set at 11-12 psi... spikes to maybe 14, settles back down, and then starts creeping around 4500-5000. Ive read that article before... Its definitely creep, I know my BLTs have been good, she holds 25 psi no problem, and the spike doesn't get dangerous so i haven't worried about it. I was trying to sell my ebay turbo but from the looks of it, it'll be a parts whore by the weekend. On a side note, what the hell do you call the tool you guys use for porting??? Die grinder? most of those seem too big

 

[Dsmkauai]

Ok cool just want to make sure we are all on the same page! it sounds like your turbo would do better with a new wastgate actuator bro! From you having some spikes and creep it sounds like its weak and can't hold very well. Not saying you need the holset one, even a fresh or never 14b one will do, I may have a extra newer one you can have. And yes die grinder I have a few different types, 90* one, straight, long, short, and tons of diff carbide bits and a tons of polishing stuff . I found a good set of bits on amazon that work really good and have lasted a long time for me so far. Here's the link [ame=http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B00061SFKK/ref=pd_aw_sims_1?pi=SL500_SS115]Astro Pneumatic 2181 Double Cut Carbide Rotary Burr Set with 1/4-Inch Shank:Amazon:Home Improvement[/ame]

 

[Steve93Talon]

I have my boost set at 11-12 psi... spikes to maybe 14, settles back down, and then starts creeping around 4500-5000. Ive read that article before... Its definitely creep, I know my BLTs have been good, she holds 25 psi no problem, and the spike doesn't get dangerous so i haven't worried about it. I was trying to sell my ebay turbo but from the looks of it, it'll be a parts whore by the weekend. On a side note, what the hell do you call the tool you guys use for porting??? Die grinder? most of those seem too big

How high is it actually creeping to? Properly porting the wastegate hole is all you should need to control it.

 

[johneclipse]

I have my boost set at 11-12 psi... spikes to maybe 14, settles back down, and then starts creeping around 4500-5000. Ive read that article before... Its definitely creep, I know my BLTs have been good, she holds 25 psi no problem, and the spike doesn't get dangerous so i haven't worried about it. I was trying to sell my ebay turbo but from the looks of it, it'll be a parts whore by the weekend. On a side note, what the hell do you call the tool you guys use for porting??? Die grinder? most of those seem too big

Dremel or sizz-wheel with grinding attachments. I prefer the Dremel since ours is battery operated therefore easier to handle

 

[93RS]

My boost gauge only reads to 20 psi and I've seen it pegged a couple times since the exhaust has went on. Still havent hit fuel cut though. I have at least 15-16psi by 5k rpms and my MBC is set to 11-12. It spiked to 13 then settled back down to 11 before the exhaust. I attributed the spike to my FP intake pipe, K&N Filter and my Hard UICP. I'm going to pull my POS ebay 16g and port the hell out of the exhaust side. At least it will come in handy for something. I dont know of any shops around here that could balance the turbo after a rebuild, so I am going to find a good 14b and just stuff my ported housing on that one. I can't send it off because its my only transportation until it gets nice enough to break out the Ninja