15psi on a 13g? [1G]

[Oblivion02]

I was wondering if anyone has had any success boosting a 13g up to 15 psi, and if so, what have they done to get there? Does this boost level affect efficiency? If not, what is the most you have been able to get out of it, and how?

 

[xdxoxuxgx]

I don't see why you would have a problem making 15psi on a 13g but you'll need the supporting mods to do it safely such as fuel pump, injectors, boost controller, AFPR, and something to tune it with. I think you were getting at that with your other post about putting injectors on your car.

 

[kenamond]

I was looking at the 13g compressor map here. I'm not sure if the DSM 13g is a TD04 housing or not. If that's the right map, you should be okay with efficiency at 15psi. If you're flowing 20lb/min of air through it at 15psi (PR is close to 2.0 at sea level), then it's still 76% efficient. But I don't know how well the hotside flows. If it doesn't flow well at that boost, and you have stock exhaust, the backpressure in the mani might be pretty high. Also, this says nothing about being able to deliver enough fuel. Someone with a 13g at 15psi boost and stock exhaust and a logger could tell us all what to expect .

 

[pboglio]

I was wondering if anyone has had any success boosting a 13g up to 15 psi, and if so, what have they done to get there? Does this boost level affect efficiency? If not, what is the most you have been able to get out of it, and how?

15 psi is not much really. It'll have some kickass midrange. Then you'll probably blow it like I did trying to run 20 psi everyday. All you need is a fuel pump at this point.

The turbine housing/exhaust manifold on the 13g is a MASSIVE restriction. Back pressure in the turbine side is enough to bring the cars acceleration to a standstill above 100 mph. If ever a turbo/manifold needed port work, the 13g could seriously benefit from it.

I've got a 13g that I had Turbonetics slap a Super 60 (16g style) compressor into with a 15* turbine clip. Stock like spool (2500-2600 rpm) with monster midrange. Top end sucked but I never ported the exhaust housing. Got it laying around somewhere.

 

[TheMadCheshire]

I don't have any logs of it, but I ran mine at 16 psi no problem. I put in some methanol injection one day, turned up the boost to 18 and dialed it in (with a SAFC and my palm logger). Blew the turbo the next day while going to lunch. The poor little 13g can handle at most 16 psi in my opinion and I've read several threads that support this.
Since then I've "upgraded" to a 14b and a manual tranny! Goodluck!

 

[Oblivion02]

I'm going to get a logger first, and once I have the boost gauge, and the MBC, I'll start turning it up a bit, and let you guys know how much I manage to squeeze out of my 13g

Does a logger tell me about:

Back pressure in the turbine side is enough to bring the cars acceleration to a standstill above 100 mph. If ever a turbo/manifold needed port work, the 13g could seriously benefit from it.

Not that I plan on going OVER 100mph, but just wondering. I do not want any extra damage done to my engine. I "want" to upgrade to a 14b, but it needs some work, like the oil lines and stuff, and I do not have the time or money for that right now. For now, I'm sticking to my 13g.

Does a 2g Exhaust Manifold fit onto my 13g?

 

[dsmconvict]

No the 2g mani will not fit. It's flanged for the 6cm^2 housing for the td05h. The 13g is a 5cm^2 td04h housing.

 

[Oblivion02]

So that means that while I have the 13g, I have to stick to my stock exhaust mani?

 

[tqmx1]

So that means that while I have the 13g, I have to stick to my stock exhaust mani?

Yes, but on Ebay right now there is a 14b down in your neck of the woods. Item #320213028852. I think he said he had the cooling & oil lines also. Last time I looked it was less than $50. Then your exhaust manafold would fit fine and it also had the O2 housing.

 

[kenamond]

I'd hold off on the exhaust manifold until you're ready to lay down the cash for the turbo, mani, and O2 housing along with the mani/turbo, turbo/O2 and O2/DP gaskets, turbo/mani bolts/washers, turbo/O2 bolts/studs/nuts/washers, exhaust mani stud/nut set, coolant lines, oil line/tube and coolant banjo bolts, fittings and crush washers. You could skimp on some of that, but you'll sleep better if they all get changed while the turbo, mani, and O2 housing are off the car.

 

[dikdiamond]

I'd hold off on the exhaust manifold until you're ready to lay down the cash for the turbo, mani, and O2 housing along with the mani/turbo, turbo/O2 and O2/DP gaskets, turbo/mani bolts/washers, turbo/O2 bolts/studs/nuts/washers, exhaust mani stud/nut set, coolant lines, oil line/tube and coolant banjo bolts, fittings and crush washers. You could skimp on some of that, but you'll sleep better if they all get changed while the turbo, mani, and O2 housing are off the car.

I agree,I'm gathering these things myself for my upgrade to a small 16g...time for the 13g to go,I want more power

 

[dsmconvict]

I have a few stock lines laying around...

 

[Oblivion02]

What I'm going to do is just stick to the 13g, and save up so I can eventually buy a bigger turbo, along with the rest of the things I'd need. For now, the 13g will have to do. I just want to try and squeeze the most psi out of it.

How much have you gotten out of your 13g without harming the efficiency?

 

[2DSMs]

My wife's Laser had the 13G setup on her auto. With just basic mods @ 17 psi I was able to run a 14.2 @ 95 with my sorry 240 lb butt. If you port the exhaust housing to 7cm, exhaust manifold and 02 housing the spoolup will amaze you(and your friends). Kiggly (Kevin K) ran high 13's with his. I've since moved to a s16G on the Laser. Up to 4000 k power wise, both turbo's are the same. Above that however, the 16G owns. BTW, to run 17-18 lbs on Sunoco 94, the 13G only requires a fuel pump rewire. Good luck.

 

[Oblivion02]

Basic mods being which? Did you follow any specific instructions for the porting? I've never ported a thing in my life. Should I try to do this myself or take it to a machine shope?

 

[dsmconvict]

Porting it or getting it ported out to 7cm^2 will take a longgg time/alot of money. Just stick with the 13g until you get all the mods needed to run a 14b/16g setup.

 

[kenamond]

Porting it or getting it ported out to 7cm^2 will take a longgg time/alot of money...

I respectfuly disagree .
Harbor freight electric die grinder: $45
Two double-cut cylinder-radius-end carbide burs: $30
5 Dremel flap wheels: $10
Assorted grit aluminum oxide sand paper: $10
Labor: free
Total cost in dollars: $95
Total cost in time 6 hours (3 for turbo/mani removal/installation, 3 for porting/polishing)

Sure, you could replace all the studs/nuts/bolts/washers/gaskets, too. But the porting aspect is *not* expensive and doesn't take a "longgg time". Don't know if the 1g auto manifold would crack or not, but you could pick up a 2g mani, port it, and later re-use it for the 16g/14b. Once you've ported once, you get a LOT more confident about doing it again.

Does the 13g hotside bolt up to the center section (like a T25/T28) or use a band-clamp (like a 16g/14b)? If it uses a band clamp, you can drop the turbine housing, O2 housing, and exhaust manifold without disconnecting the oil and coolant lines. Might make the labor for assembly/disassembly faster.

Read up on it (I have some detailed posts on porting that might help) and then decide if it's a project you're comfortable attempting.

 

[2DSMs]

By basic mods I mean full 2.5" exhaust, K&N, 2.5" UIP, manual boost controller, totally stock MAF and motor and zero tuning. I have to agree with kenamond, porting is really no big deal as I did all the porting myself with an electric die grinder. Keep in mind that the 13G's small 5cm exhaust housing is a restriction and this is where a good port job helps ALOT.

 

[CTP]

Porting it or getting it ported out to 7cm^2 will take a longgg time/alot of money. Just stick with the 13g until you get all the mods needed to run a 14b/16g setup.

Not only will it be hard, it will be impossible. 7cm^2 is an internal measurement of the turbine housing itself. You can't "port out" a 6cm^2 housing to a 7cm^2 house any more than you can port a .48 T3 to a .63 T3. It would involve opening the entire volute and exit cone, with perfect consistancy, to the new size which is impossible by any other means than a miracle.

"Porting" the housing out like everyone is suggesting consists of hogging out the turbine inlet and leaving the rest of the housing untouched. The only thing this results in is decreased flow that is no longer smooth and transitioning how it was designed to. Turbine housings have a funnel shape for a reason and boring out the inlet to the funnel has zero effect on overall flow and does nothing other than ruin the proper taper that took some engineer a long time to come up with.

In short, don't port it. You're harming, not helping.

 

[pboglio]

Not only will it be hard, it will be impossible. 7cm^2 is an internal measurement of the turbine housing itself. You can't "port out" a 6cm^2 housing to a 7cm^2 house any more than you can port a .48 T3 to a .63 T3. It would involve opening the entire volute and exit cone, with perfect consistancy, to the new size which is impossible by any other means than a miracle.

"Porting" the housing out like everyone is suggesting consists of hogging out the turbine inlet and leaving the rest of the housing untouched. The only thing this results in is decreased flow that is no longer smooth and transitioning how it was designed to. Turbine housings have a funnel shape for a reason and boring out the inlet to the funnel has zero effect on overall flow and does nothing other than ruin the proper taper that took some engineer a long time to come up with.

In short, don't port it. You're harming, not helping.

I don't think you fully understand why porting the collector helps. The stock manifold comes with nearly a 90* sharp bend into the collector. By opening up the collector, you can radius the turn much smoother and match it to the turbine inlet. This is typically a good thing as long as the opening isn't overported. Removing the step in the collector is the suggested maximum. I've datalogged an increase of about .5 lb/min from porting out a T28 turbine housing to "6cm" so to speak. Porting to "7cm" gained nothing but was done to match port an FP race exhaust manifold.

The collector on the exhaust manifold for a 13g is literally nothing, the opening is like two small slits. The flow drag alone is massive. Why do I say this? Cause I did a little experiment and tossed the 13g exhaust manifold onto my 16g. The flow drag was so great it acted as an exhaust brake at higher rpms.

Trust me, you WANT to port the exhaust manifold collector that comes with the 13g.

 

[CTP]

I don't think you fully understand why porting the collector helps. The stock manifold comes with nearly a 90* sharp bend into the collector. By opening up the collector, you can radius the turn much smoother and match it to the turbine inlet. This is typically a good thing as long as the opening isn't overported. Removing the step in the collector is the suggested maximum. I've datalogged an increase of about .5 lb/min from porting out a T28 turbine housing to "6cm" so to speak. Porting to "7cm" gained nothing but was done to match port an FP race exhaust manifold.

The collector on the exhaust manifold for a 13g is literally nothing, the opening is like two small slits. The flow drag alone is massive. Why do I say this? Cause I did a little experiment and tossed the 13g exhaust manifold onto my 16g. The flow drag was so great it acted as an exhaust brake at higher rpms.

Trust me, you WANT to port the exhaust manifold collector that comes with the 13g.

I was refering to porting the turbine housing itself. Obviously matching the manifold outlet with the turbine inlet is going to be beneficial. It's this "porting" of the turbine housings that everyone on here and even many reputable shops offer that is a complete joke.

 

[kenamond]

I was refering to porting the turbine housing itself. Obviously matching the manifold outlet with the turbine inlet is going to be beneficial. It's this "porting" of the turbine housings that everyone on here and even many reputable shops offer that is a complete joke.

The two reasons I see for folks porting their turbine housings are to be able to match a collector that's been opened up and to deal with creep issues. Neither of these are a joke, and I don't know other reasons. I don't think a 13g would benefit from a 7cm^2 gasket match, but folks have certainly seen benefits from opening it up to a 6.

And you might want to put your PCV system back to working order or atleast read the "Stupid PCV question" thread for ways to get it working properly and reliably rather than giving up on it.

 

[CTP]

The two reasons I see for folks porting their turbine housings are to be able to match a collector that's been opened up and to deal with creep issues. Neither of these are a joke, and I don't know other reasons. I don't think a 13g would benefit from a 7cm^2 gasket match, but folks have certainly seen benefits from opening it up to a 6.

And you might want to put your PCV system back to working order or atleast read the "Stupid PCV question" thread for ways to get it working properly and reliably rather than giving up on it.

Does anyone have dyno evidence to support that boring out a turbine inlet actually helps spool or makes more power? They never have and they never will. Like I said, matching outlet to inlet is a good thing, enlarging 1/10 of the turbine volute because you think it's going to increase flow is simply assinine.


What does my PCV system have to do with turbine porting? Regardless, PCV systems are for emissions. Next time you see an 800hp, street driven Supra with anything other than an atmosphere vented crankcase you let me know.

 

[kenamond]

Does anyone have dyno evidence to support that boring out a turbine inlet actually helps spool or makes more power? They never have and they never will. Like I said, matching outlet to inlet is a good thing, enlarging 1/10 of the turbine volute because you think it's going to increase flow is simply assinine.


What does my PCV system have to do with turbine porting? Regardless, PCV systems are for emissions. Next time you see an 800hp, street driven Supra with anything other than an atmosphere vented crankcase you let me know.

I noticed it in your profile (along with several bolt-ons/"hacks" ) and was recommending you fix it. If you think it's only for emissions, you don't know as much as you think you do about it. Read the thread I mentioned for more information. But you're right, this was off topic.

And rather than tossing burden of proof on us, why don't you explain why porting a stock exhaust manifold collector is a bad thing on cars that are pushing 2x the airflow of the stock system? (and once you've done this, it would be asinine to not portmatch the turbine housing) Folks aren't going to take you very seriously if you just ridicule the practice.

 

[CTP]

I noticed it in your profile (along with several bolt-ons/"hacks" ) and was recommending you fix it. If you think it's only for emissions, you don't know as much as you think you do about it. Read the thread I mentioned for more information. But you're right, this was off topic.

By all means, start another topic about it. If you're one of the belivers of "pcv is for ring seal" you don't deserve that wiseman title. Please do a little research on the history of PCV, learn why the system is in place, and consult some professional racers and engineers in regards to its importance (or more like the lack thereof). Nothing short of an air pump has any worth in PCV. The stock system and any variation of it that you choose to come up with only functions when it doesn't need to and never when it does. It is for nothing more than compliance with the federal regulations mandating that cankcase ventilation be scavanged and not dumped to the atmosphere.

And rather than tossing burden of proof on us, why don't you explain why porting a stock exhaust manifold collector is a bad thing on cars that are pushing 2x the airflow of the stock system? (and once you've done this, it would be asinine to not portmatch the turbine housing) Folks aren't going to take you very seriously if you just ridicule the practice.

I never said there was anything wrong with opening the exhaust manifold outlet, but you need to ask yourself why you're doing it. If you're opening it to match the inlet of a larger turbine, then by all means, go for it, it's needed. However, if you're doing it because you think it's somehow improving flow on your 14b based turbo system, you're delusional. At that point, you're opening the manifold outlet only to have the air bottle neck back down into the small turbine inlet. So now you port out the turbine inlet too because you think that's going to improve the situation. Now the air comes out of the big hole you made in the manifold, into the big inlet you made in the turbine and..... once again bottle necks back down because the remaining 90% of the turbine volute length you couldn't touch is still small. Not to mention the turbine wheel itself is still small, etc etc etc. Long story short, the outlet of that manifold is not the restricting point and until you can show me dyno evidence of hogged out turbine inlets producing power or spool gains, then it doesn't do anything.

If you want to do something worthwhile, have the entire housing extrude honed. That would actually make a difference, but would also be gross monetary overkill for the tiny power/spool gains you'd see.