Why does this motor keep spinning bearings?

[Clinical]

Okay to start off this is actually over my friend's civic..

I know im out of line here talking about a civic but either way the general way a motor works doesn't differ a whole lot.. Just trying to get some idea on whats going on with my buddy's car.

It's a d16z6 sohc turbo build. Vitara pistons/tuner toy rods/built head.. Made 303whp over a year ago on initial build, and that build lasted 12,000 miles getting beat on nonstop. It ran 11.6 best pass to date. running e85

Anyways, it spun a rod back in August. So it was down for a bit, he went ahead and built his head and got some other new things like an intake mani. Got it all back together in October. Initial startup all went good. We found out his wideband sensor has always been bad, and his car was most likely running lean the entire time on the old build. So we spent the day tuning (using hondata s300) and by the end of the day we were doing some full pulls. It wasn't feelin too bad. two days later, some more tuning it starts knocking again, the same bearing/rod as before.

Air/fuel was great at around 12.2-12.5 all the way through. We were running very low timing.

So he took it to the machine shop and they said it'd work with just polishing/machining the rod and using an oversized bearing.

So now about a week and a half ago he got the car back together. First start up was great again. We went out and did some retuning since he had lowered his base fuel pressure. He was running mostly off his wastegate spring at only 10psi down from 22psi. So we tuned that for awhile. Car never saw 20+ pounds until yesterday. It did good this last week or so, seemed like it was holding up solid.

Last night he finally raises the boost back to 22. We went and we were about to go out to do a tuning pull and I just checked his temp on the laptop and as soon as I checked it, it started rocketing up.. So we turned it off and it instantly dropped. Weird. Well we did two pulls, the car felt great. Made a few changes tuning-wise. We headed back into town and met up with a friend, then on our way back out I heard something and he did too.. it sounded like his tranny at first.

We pulled off, and sure enough,knocking again. We started driving to his house and all of a sudden there was a bang, the car died. The motor completely seized up and would just click when trying to start. Sitting on the highway for about 20 minutes and finally it started, knocking like a beast.

So this is a long post but I'm trying to give all the info I can.. Something has to be going wrong here, the tuning is good. Timing is at only 10 degrees down from 20, a/f is staying great.

I'm leaning towards the machine shop just doing shoddy work.. I've always said I'd never take my motor there, they're the only place in town though.. but they are all v8's.

 

[LiquidX]

Was the block fully cleaned out of all metal shavings and clogs. Seems like a potential oiling issue or something is out of spec on the section

 

[judozuna]

Just a guess but it seems like maybe you're not giving it enough break in time?

I would say you should put at least 1000 miles on a new set of bearings before running 20+ psi of boost and beating all over the thing. That way everything has a chance to settle in a little bit.

Like I said though, thats just a guess.

 

[99gst_racer]

Just a guess but it seems like maybe you're not giving it enough break in time?

I would say you should put at least 1000 miles on a new set of bearings before running 20+ psi of boost and beating all over the thing. That way everything has a chance to settle in a little bit.

Like I said though, thats just a guess.

It's definitely not this. Everybody that has ever used the Motoman break-in method has proved this wrong.


OP - How much do you guys trust the work of the machine shop?

 

[JEFFREYCASTGSX]

^^^ And do you trust who built the motor? (whoever built it)

 

[white92talontsi]

So he took it to the machine shop and they said it'd work with just polishing/machining the rod and using an oversized bearing.

This is where the problem stems from. Steer clear of this maching shop please.

 

[judozuna]

Where can I find information on the Motoman breakin?

I'm getting to crank over the engine I just finished building for the first time too and I'm pretty nervous about it because I've put so much time and money into it I want to break it in right.

 

[Nvisabl]

If we had some pics of carmage it would be helpful. I am gonna take a stab #1 rod bearing? Hate to say but a lot of SOHC Hondas end up this way (2 in my shop we didn't build) say exact story, 1st guy did all his own work "Per spec" seized up 1500 miles .. When they put motor together didn't account for all that extra heat from the turbo.. 12,000 to me doesn't seem like a clean build the first time,, I suspect you didn't do a complete tear down after that and just FIXED the problem. again just guessing but bet you have galled up pistons.

Good LUCK

 

[99gst_racer]

This is where the problem stems from. Steer clear of this maching shop please.

What makes you say that based upon what he said?
I'm not saying the mahine shop isn't at fault, but we don't know enough at this point to say for sure.

 

[Clinical]

Was the block fully cleaned out of all metal shavings and clogs. Seems like a potential oiling issue or something is out of spec on the section

Well if he sticks it through with this motor (he's thinking about just going k20, he's been running the sohc for quite a few years now and is pretty much fed up right now) then he's going to get a new oil pump.

However his oil pressure has always been good. He has an aftermarket gauge and it has always been great, it still had good oil pressure even when knocking. Block to my knowledge is always cleaned

It's definitely not this. Everybody that has ever used the Motoman break-in method has proved this wrong.


OP - How much do you guys trust the work of the machine shop?

I do but I don't.
We have a sprint car race track here, and they build pretty much all of the motors for the cars there. They built my friend's original build, and our other friend's 300whp civic there. The other civic has around 20k+ on it, but it's also a daily driver and doesnt get beat on as much as the civic in question.

As for myself I'd only take my block/head there for surfacing jobs for example.
Theres a place 2 hours for me that specializing in DSM motors which is where I'd go.

And yeah we really don't believe in that break-in method.

So many people I know have broke in their cars on the track/dyno and did fine. The other civic was broke in on the dyno, and so was this one on its original build that lasted 12k.

However it seems like the shop has screwed up a bit lately.
They told him the first time it knocked they wouldnt warranty it because he didn't prime it right (he follows exact procedures recommended by a honda performance shop) and we heard of like 2 other people in the last few months that got a motor done there and started knocking and they told them they didnt prime it right too.

Then my buddy after this last rebuild asked for a fel-pro headgasket, and they said they'd get it. Usually he just takes his block down there but he took the entire longblock this last time because he was pissed off about it knocking the second time.

Well he got it put together and pushing coolant and overheating. Turns out they used a cheap shitty headgasket not meant for boost at all. They at least refunded his money for it and admitted they didnt use a fel-pro becasue they couldnt find one in stock.

 

[Gamble97]

Where can I find information on the Motoman breakin?

Google.
Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

Basically you warm up the motor to operating temp, and go WOT and then let the car decel on it's own. The people that have issues with this break in are the people who do NOT let the car warm up fully.

 

[BogusSVO]

ok.. did you clean the crank just before installing it?, from polishing it there can be abrasive/metal flake in the oil galleys of the crank and as soon as oil hits it force the debris into the rod bearing.

next was the crank polished in the direction of engine rotation? when a metal surface is polished, the micro peaks get bent in the way the surface was polished, if they end up being bent against the engine rotation, they then can then dig/grab into the bearing surface.

also some cleacances need to be opend up some, we are talk tenths of a thousandth of an inch, you may be suffrering from excessive theremal clearance. OR now the crank has been polished 2? 3? times, you have too much bearing clearance, and not enough oil film is being kept between the crank surface and the rod bearing...

 

[Clinical]

ok.. did you clean the crank just before installing it?, from polishing it there can be abrasive/metal flake in the oil galleys of the crank and as soon as oil hits it force the debris into the rod bearing.

next was the crank polished in the direction of engine rotation? when a metal surface is polished, the micro peaks get bent in the way the surface was polished, if they end up being bent against the engine rotation, they then can then dig/grab into the bearing surface.

also some cleacances need to be opend up some, we are talk tenths of a thousandth of an inch, you may be suffrering from excessive theremal clearance. OR now the crank has been polished 2? 3? times, you have too much bearing clearance, and not enough oil film is being kept between the crank surface and the rod bearing...

crank was brand new after the first rebuild in october, and I believe it was just turned this last time.

 

[Clinical]

Okay well we pulled the motor today and took it apart. Quite a good amount of metal shavings as expected. Ill try to upload a photo but im on my phone so it may not work...

However its #4 rod bearing.. This is the exact same one that has spun the last two times in this last two months.. We really have no idea.. Everything else is perfect

 

[EGLTAWLN]

i've spun rod bearings on my ae86 in various unrelated blocks.
but only after i turbo'ed it.
my theory for the problem is that i believe i'm streaching the stock oem rod bolts. they were only designed for 130 hp N/A

i'm pushing 250-300 hp on stock bolts and i expected them to hold up. i think that's my problem.

so now for the rebuild, i have ARP rod bolts to eliminate that possibility.
just throwing that out there.

 

[bonestocker]

i had a civic with a b18 i built my self all the porting and polishing in the head had the head shaved and block decked and crank polished by a machine shop my break in was first crank up let it get to normal heat then let her sit there at 2500 for 20 mins then it was on the road wide open from there and never had a problem out of it ran strong from time of crank up to time i sold it and the guy still has it and beats the piss out of it and still has the power i always torque my bolts a hair tighter then ### the book calls for

 

[master jared]

a buddie of mineuse to have a turbo accord HONDAS HATE BOOST that is what he said he got the turbo kit off my other buddies civic it HATED BOOST so dont boost it hondas run great n/a

 

[pj91gsx]

you were at 12.2-.5 thats pretty lean. you could have had engine knock, could you read engine knock on hondata? Thats for the 1st time it spun bearings, as for the 2nd time, its most likely metal shaving blocking off oil pressure, and the 4th cylinder is the last rod to get oil pressure. Machine shops just throw the engine parts in a parts washer, it never flushes out all the metal chips in the oil journals. I have pressure washed a lot of sludge and metall shaving out of a cylinder head that was just came back from a machine shop before.

 

[Clinical]

Yea hes running arp rod bolts.

Wtf are you talking about hondas hate boost? They love boost - esp the single cams.

12.5 is a good a/f for e85

 

[pj91gsx]

Yea hes running arp rod bolts.

Wtf are you talking about hondas hate boost? They love boost - esp the single cams.

12.5 is a good a/f for e85

your right about those single cams, ive ridden in a stock f22 with a holset vgt hanging off it at 20 psi#really fast. even though it had an lsd, with street tires, the guy had to show me what it can do in 4th gear to avoid spinning tires

 

[jdavisawd]

You said your wide band was bad. Is there any way running lean so long could affect the integrity of the block enough by warpage. Ive personally never heard of it but just thought of it off the top of my head.

 

[Clinical]

it was all checked I'm positive.

I know the head was plained, and I'm sure he checked the block too, he really fine-combed it after spinning the bearing the second time.

He's thinking about just starting over with a brand new block, brand new head and just reusing his pistons in the bottom end, replacing everything else.

 

[rx7ttlm]

if your spinning bearings and don't know why. I would guess that you don't have enough oil clearance.

 

[ShawnsGarage]

When honduh guys get fed up they go big and buy a DSM...

On subject. Check the crank to rod oil clearances. What brand bearings is he using?

 

[drewboi]

sounds like the opposite of the kid we like to call tony baloney around here.. or tony tune and boom.. haha.. he some how managed to make a crx backfire through the intake...

but this kid has been through a nice pile of cranks because he refused to use the standed Honda green bearings and go with something with a little bit too extra oil clearance .. all on a dart block :[ poor thing

what kind of bearings is your friend using?