Who Should build my Long Block? 2.3/2.4

[95GSXBLUR]

Alright guys - I've searched, I've conqured, and I want honest opinions and detailed information. I've been around this sight and DSMs for the last 4 years. My car is nothing with out a strongt motor - It's been down for a year and a half. I've gone through two used motors only to have them fail on me. My stock 7 bolt spun a bearing, and both my used 6 bolts did the same.

I'm going for a BRAND NEW MOTOR. I'm not messing around anymore. I want a mean street machine with 400-500 RELIABLE street horse.

Current Mods:
TO4B V-Trim
FIC750cc
DSMLink
Walbro 255
SBR Race Frontmount
Aeromotive FPR
-6AN fuel lines
Oil cooler
ACT2600
good brakes
good suspension
completely rebuilt car (minus the key part.... MOTOR)
3" turbo back

BLAH BLAH. I have all the supporting mods I have a lot of knowledge. I don't want to build the motor myself because I'm affraid of screwing it up. I have 3 shops in mind to build my motor for me....

AMS, Slowboy, or FFWD Connection.

I keep trying to call FFWD with no answer - Slowboy seems egar and very helpful, and I haven't called AMS yet.

IMPORTANT: I have $5000. That's my budget.

What do you think? 2.3? 2.4? 2.0? Which shop? Honestly - is that enough cash? not enough? What should I do? Any help is appreciated - I want everyone's input.

Thanks in Advance! for life

 

[zilo900]

personal opinion- go where you can get it the cheapest.
Take a look, these are all reputable shops, its not like youre just going to some general machine shop.

SBR,AMS, and FFWD are DSM Specialty shops. You will always hear a bad thing or two about some dsm shop, but in the end, they know how to assemble these motors correctly, as well as work with you for your goals.

Now, why do I say choose the cheapest shop- you will only be choosing from the best of the best with any of them. But basically for assembling a motor that is, in a matter of speaking, nothing special (meaning its no 8 or 9 second bound track only car), the extra you would pay from one shop to another is really only paying for the difference in labor charges and parts costs from each shop.

2nd personal choice- I am going with sbr, no particular reason other than that I am not building on unlimited funds. FFWD seems to be the most expensive, then AMS, with SBR being the best price.

I also would like a 2.3 stroker. I want the extra power before boost, and just a little somethin extra that you cant make with bolt-ons, displacement is the way to make power that you dont have to wait for

You should determine if you want to be a high revving, top end power machine (2.0) ; or keep your rpms limited to about 7200, but with extra torque before boost (2.3/2.4)
Either way when you talk to your shop of choice they will be able to better advise your needs as far as what you are looking for.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Slowboy posted me a $5617 quote with shipping on a 2.3L I believe. I think I'd rather have a 2.4L to get a better rod ratio - I'm really not concerned with revving considering I want to shift with out my transmission exploding.

I still think that price is too high. I was looking more towards 5000+ shipping so maybe 5300 max. I still have to buy fluids and other misc junk to get the car running correctly.

Thanks for reassuring me that I've made the correct choices when choosing a shop.

Any other ideas guys?

 

[brute]

Just get good forged internals, and stay away from the bells and whistles. So, for a stroker, all you should get is some good forged pistons and rods, new bearings, and that's it. No need for an Eagle crank, no need for Cryo-Processing, no need for a kevlar timing belt, etc. I suggest 2.3L with Wiseco pistons and Eagle rods. Some type of tri-metal bearings. ACL, Clevite, something, as long as they're tri-metal. That will be an excellent street set-up. I also highly suggest FFWD, followed by AMS, then others. I've had really bad experiences with Slowboy, and so have others. This negative feedback would be totally unacceptable to me if I was looking for someone to spend $5000 at, and trust them to build me something as important as a motor.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

I've never had a problem with slowboy - They've always taken care of me so I'm going of my own expierence with them. Thanks for your input - I think that's the way to go. I don't want a new crank and all the bells/whistles as you mentioned. I want a relieable 500awhp street motor. I already have a kevlar belt that I bought previously so that doesn't really matter. But anyway do you think a 2.4 would be a better way to go because of the rod ratio? I just heard it's really had on the bearings with a 2.3 because of that problem. I would like to see 100K out of this motor, I'll probably sell it before then, but I'd like to have that option.

Thanks again

 

[brute]

It depends what you have money and time for. If you want to buy a new block, that adds a lot to the expense of your build. If you go with a 2.3L, I'm sure you'll be fine. Just use 7000rpm as a redline. Don't go higher. The 2.3 is a huge bang for the buck. The 2.4 is almost more hassle than it's worth. That's just me.

 

[BISHILVR]

What about Buschur racing? They are probably the best for strength and for the money I dont think that anyone will touch what they will give you. At least give them a look and maybe a phone call before you decide, you will be glad you did.

 

[silver eclipse]

I have purchased a short block from slowboy racing. The block spun 3 rod bearing and most likely some main bearing( I havent gotten that far into it, I just put another engine in the car).
So with that said I would not purchase an engine from them again.
Im not trying to bash them in anyway because I have had great response with other parts, just the engine wasnt built properly in my opinion, the bearings looked as if not clearanced enough.
Try checking out buscher racing.
-Chad

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Thanks for the replys guys.

I'm still looking into AMS, Bushur and FFWD. Slowboy has been nothing but good to me. I'm dealing with Mike Huml and he's down to earth and seems genuinely excited for me. They have been the most helpful overall by being informative and being availble to speek and ask questions to.

I'm calling AMS tomorrow, as well as Bushur.

I've again tried to get a hold of FFWD several times with NO answer and NO returned phone calls. Everyone says Darren @ FFWD is awesome, but I haven't even got to talk to him.

Chad - I'm sorry to hear about your misfortune with the block. Can you be sure that is was THEIR fault? I mean, I spun a stock bearing on my 7 bolt and then spun two more on two used 6 bolts. It happens. Were you pushing it too hard? I mean, it could have been a number of things. Granted I'm not trying to be offensive in any means, so please don't take it that way.

Brute - They're doing a 4G64 Block and crank for the same price as a 2.3L. I'll get 30-40ft-lbs for about the same price, it really isn't a hastle, you just need a different block - which they would be providing. Which I think is pretty bad ass.

Thanks again for all the replys guys - Any more ideas?

 

[GVR4592]

You won't get 30-40 ft/lbs over a 2.3 with a 2.4. The rod ratio is the same between the two as well.

I'd call Mitch at Engintecs and tell him how much you have to work with, he's not as well known as some of the other guys, but you won't be disappointed.

http://engintecs.com/

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225537&highlight=engintecs

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246077&highlight=engintecs

 

[1GawdJunkie]

You won't get 30-40 ft/lbs over a 2.3 with a 2.4. The rod ratio is the same between the two as well.

I'd call Mitch at Engintecs and tell him how much you have to work with, he's not as well known as some of the other guys, but you won't be disappointed.

http://engintecs.com/

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225537&highlight=engintecs

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246077&highlight=engintecs

Mitch is a great guy, very helpful. He rebuilt my head.

 

[silver eclipse]

Like I said, ive always had great costumer service with them.
On the bearings I could see an un even wear pattern, as tho maybe the crank wasnt cut right or something, or they where to tight. The center of the bearing has been worn till it looked gold. That was on the one that wasnt destroyed. The other bearing one half spun around and melted itself to the other half. Now its may have been a fluke with this engine, but after only 1200 miles and a proper breakin period with excellent oil pressure, it seemed a lil odd.
It never had the most common signs of rod knock or anything of that sort. It just locked up all the sudden when coming down the shutdown.
-Chad

P.S. not gold but a worn shade of silverish

 

[Slowboy]

You won't get 30-40 ft/lbs over a 2.3 with a 2.4. The rod ratio is the same between the two as well.

I'd call Mitch at Engintecs and tell him how much you have to work with, he's not as well known as some of the other guys, but you won't be disappointed.

http://engintecs.com/

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=225537&highlight=engintecs

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=246077&highlight=engintecs

(Not trying to stir the pot)

We have seen 30-35 ft/lbs with a 2.4l over the 2.3l time and time again and it makes peak tq 100-200 RPM's sooner. We have seen this on restricted and non restricted motors.

Rod ratio is determined by the rod length and the stroke, so he is correct.

The big difference between the blocks are 6mm taller deck, and 1.5mm larger bore (comparing .020" to .020" over motors).

I really like the 2.4l option for a pure street car, but opinions vary on driving style for sure.

Mike Huml

 

[2gAWDTalon]

https://secure.buschurracing.com/catalog/product_info.php?cPath=22_34&products_id=150
IMO not really worth it, you can build a motor cheaper yourself, But I know someone that has this short block and the stage 3 head and the car make alot of power...

 

[snox135]

I would get a hold of AMS they do great work.

Just remember if you go 2.4l, your kevlar timing belt is useless.

 

[JWoodley]

Personally I'm going to be building a 4G64 over the next year or so for a possible winter drop in. I have access to the G4CS as well but I'm still debating (after reading a ton and seeing what a few engine builders have discovered about bearing failures). I'm still leaning towards the 4G64 though. Anyways, I'm planning on having a local machine shop do all the work and even assemble the shortblock. The only thing I'll be doing is providing the parts. Any knowledgeable machinist should be able to do the work you ask them to. As far as a head, I'm trying to see if it will be cheaper to run a 1G with +1mm valves or have a 2G ported (possibly greater potential when ported) with the oversized valves as well. FP3x or BC 280s with dual springs.

Also, don't let someone fool you into thinking a well built stroker motor can't rev past the factory rev limit. There are several guys on the boards who take their strokers well near 10k rpms at the track. Just remember the extra torque could be fun or could mean a new tranny, so its a good idea to have a set goal in mind before throwing $6000 to someone.

 

[bullettdsm]

I've again tried to get a hold of FFWD several times with NO answer and NO returned phone calls. Everyone says Darren @ FFWD is awesome, but I haven't even got to talk to him.

IMO I think you've eliminated one. No answer, no return calls. Customer service is very important for something like this. At this point they can have all the excuses in the world but I would not choose them. Imagine having a problem and calling to no response and no return calls. Nope not for me.

There is a dsm company out there who's owner is a great, knowledgeable, helpful guy who can get your problem solved. Unfortunately, his employees don't follow that and I would not do business with them because I don't like gambling (think 420a).

My vote is AMS due to the relationship that my friend's shop (Total Autosports in Ct - shameless plug ) has with them. Great customer service and knowledge. WILL back up product. Of course, I don't think that "ability" is being questioned on any of these companies. So I would look at customer service and contact ability.

MB

 

[95GSXBLUR]

IMO I think you've eliminated one. No answer, no return calls. Customer service is very important for something like this.

MB

I agree. Thanks for all the replies guys. I've narrowed it down. Now I have to wait for my funds to come through and If they do, I'll let you guys know the end result. If you're interested PM me in a month or two.

Any other suggestions or ideas would be appreciated!

Scott

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Just remember if you go 2.4l, your kevlar timing belt is useless.

Hmmm... Maybe I'm a retard for assuming things - But I was under the impression that they were the same belt/size? I mean, I know the block is 6mm taller, but I figured the tensioners had a enough slack/play in them to compensate for that. sooooo please confirm that I'm a retard. Thanks! ME

 

[Street Surgeon]

They are not the same size so the belt won't work, also sent a PM regarding various shops I've used

 

[oldman]

Mitch is a great guy, very helpful. He rebuilt my head.

Mine too. Tell Mitch oldman sent you so he'll charge you double.

 

[twicks69]

IMO I think you've eliminated one. No answer, no return calls. Customer service is very important for something like this. At this point they can have all the excuses in the world but I would not choose them. Imagine having a problem and calling to no response and no return calls. Nope not for me.

There is a dsm company out there who's owner is a great, knowledgeable, helpful guy who can get your problem solved. Unfortunately, his employees don't follow that and I would not do business with them because I don't like gambling (think 420a).

My vote is AMS due to the relationship that my friend's shop (Total Autosports in Ct - shameless plug ) has with them. Great customer service and knowledge. WILL back up product. Of course, I don't think that "ability" is being questioned on any of these companies. So I would look at customer service and contact ability.

MB

Personally, I purchased my stroker assembly from Darren at FFWD, and am extremely happy with it. So what, you can't get a hold of him easily -- he is a 1-man show, and is working. What is more important??? Your motor getting done, or him on the phone with you while your motor is sitting? I have had no problems with Darren, and have been able to get quick e-mail responses, and have left phone messages for him to call me when HE is available. When you start calling someone several times, not leaving messages, or demanding something, they usually get pissed off.

If you want something simple and reliable, go with a BR stage 3 and be done. If you want a stroker, FFWD or SBR, and if you want to learn it yourself, find an excellent machine shop and expect 900-1500 for their services, then do it yourself.



If customer service is what you are looking for, expect to pay out to AM$ for your time talking to them-- I have known them for years, and get along with them well, but...All in all, you are not an EVO owner, and you aren't spending $25,000 a pop like them.

 

[JayRolla]

What ever you do go with the 4g64 2.4. You will love it.

 

[dsm dork]

Remember it costs less then half of what most people quote to do it yourself and it's not rocket science people. Theirs enough info on the net and people around usually that will help with the right knowledge to do it yourself.

 

[95GSXBLUR]

Thanks for all the help guys - I really appreciate it. I'd like to talk about my experiences with the vendors - but I'm almost afraid that I'll be breaking the rules.

I've called 5 vendors.
FFWD - Still no answer, Left messages - That's ok, I know he's good; I just want my motor started soon.

Buschur Racing - I talked to one of their guys briefly, he seemed very busy, which I understand, but Quoted me a 2.0L (only thing available) for $8500 WTF

AMS - Was able to talk to me on the phone for about 15 minutes - HIGHLY recommended I go with a 2.0, but would build a 2.3L - an estimated $6500+

Showdown Motorsports - Bill is an awesome guy, not a lot of people heard of them. He's the owner, He picked up the phone and actually talked to me for about 20 minutes. Very knowledgeable, also recommends a 2.0L. He said he'd build me a super bad ass 2.0 for $5000 flat.

Slowboy Racing - willing to do 2.4L and has many other options available. I've been speaking with Mike Huml - President of Slowboy. He's been extremely helpful and very egger to hear from me. Best price by far. I don't really want to go into too much detail because I don't know if it's only for me. And I know he's pulling some strings for this awesome price. Let’s just say 2.4L long block assembled for less than any prices above.

With all that being said - my question is I hear that 2.4s and 2.3s have nasty bearing issues; like they have to be replaced constantly. Definitely NOT something I want to deal with. I want a strongly built motor, that can handle daily driving as well as 400awhp on 93 (20psi) and 500awhp on 110 (28ish psi). I want a street car. Not a garage or a track queen. I do go to the strip. I think it'd be fun to auto-x or road race occasionally. Anymore input? Thanks!!!!