2G What missing for 450/500whp target?

[gsx tuningart]

Hi guys,
my 95 gsx have around 350 hp at 15/16 psi boost. But max output from turbo is 20psi and i have the same hp.
i don't know if i need of something more .
Any advice is appreciated
This is the list of my built:
6 bolt block
Stock crank
Eagle Rod
Arias pistons 86,00 8.8
Arp head and main stud
King xp Rod and main bearing
Fidanza aluminium flywheel
Act 2600 pp act 6 puck disk.
Competition clutch fork
Cometic head gasket
7 bolt ported head
Magnus intake Manifold
1g throttle body
1g cas
Cams hks 272 272
3g lifters
Gsc valve stem seals
Fidanza adjustable CAM gear
720 injector
Aem fuel rail
Aem fpr
Walbro255 rewired
Dnp exhaust manifold
Mvr44 Tial
Greddy fv recirculate
2,5 piping and fmic
Aem Wide band
Omnipower 3bar map sensor
Ecmlink v3
Turbo : Garrett TB 03
C.wheels ex.68,9mm in.48,8mm
T.wheels ex.48,7mm in.58,9mm
Bullseyes housing
3" downpipe and cat back
Mbc

 

[gsx tuningart]

ok ,i'm looking something good used about injectors.
second step is clear!
you think that i need of other parts for a good tuning?

 

[We're on Boost]

ok ,i'm looking something good used about injectors.
second step is clear!
you think that i need of other parts for a good tuning?

I think your other parts, cams etc, are in good shape - with the possible exception of the 2g MAF.
I think the 2g MAF will be ok but it's probably the first thing that will be a limit if you go past about 450 whp.
I don't know much about the 2g MAF myself, and I think it would be pretty hard for a person who is not a native English speaker to fish through all the stuff that has been written about it. So here is some info that I think is pretty reliable and helpful and it is what I would go by.
ECMLink wiki called "Basic MAF Data": https://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/maffrequencylimits

And here are some good quotes from that wiki:

2G DSM MAS
A stock, unhacked 2G DSM MAS (same as the 3000GT VR4 MAS, same as an Lancer EVO1-3 MAS) was designed to operate a bit higher. You'd expect overflow on a 2G DSM MAS around 2700hz. That frequency represents roughly 320 lps (about 680 cfm) of volumetric airflow. At standard temperature (around 77F) and sealevel pressure, that's about 375 gm/sec (50 lb/min) of mass airflow.

EVO8 MAS
A stock, unhacked EVO8 MAS (effectively the same as the 3G Eclipse MAS) was designed to operate even higher! You'd expect overflow on EVO8 MAS around 3000hz (we think…I'm not sure I've actually seen an EVO8 MAS overrun). That frequency represents roughly 420 lps (about 890 cfm) of volumetric airflow. At standard temperature (around 77F) and sealevel pressure, that's about 500 gm/sec (66 lb/min) of mass airflow.

Summary
MAS-----Freq limit----Volumetric limit------Mass limit
1G DSM---2000hz-------180 lps (380 cfm)-----210 gm/sec (28 lb/min)
2G DSM---2700hz-------320 lps (680 cfm)-----375 gm/sec (50 lb/min)
EVO8------3000hz-------420 lps (890 cfm)-----500 gm/sec (66 lb/min)

"When running one of these MAF sensors anywhere near these limits, use ECMLink's MAFClamp function. Read the help files and forums for more information. By using this function properly, you can effectively remove the upper airflow limitation of these MAF sensors."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

So if a reasonable limit for the 2g MAS is 50 lb/min, by our usual rule of thumb, that would be a limit probably just slightly above 450 whp.
Or looking at it another way, your GT3076 is "rated" at about 52 lb/min maximum. So you should run out of turbo at about the same time you run out of MAS.
The Evo8 MAS is mentioned here because, as far as I know, you can use it with your DSMLink V3. Or go speed density which is what a lot of us are doing lately!

 

[gsx tuningart]

Ok understand!
About speed density, i have a omnipower 3 bar map sensor , so i can take just the gm iat sensor , or is better the kit with 4bar map sensor and gm iat?
https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=18019&cat=1837&page=3
https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=27806&cat=1837&page=5

 

[We're on Boost]

Ok understand!
About speed density, i have a omnipower 3 bar map sensor , so i can take just the gm iat sensor , or is better the kit with 4bar map sensor and gm iat?
https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=18019&cat=1837&page=3
https://www.extremepsi.com/store/product.php?productid=27806&cat=1837&page=5

I think speed density is a good way to go but I should not be giving too much advice on how to do it, because the speed density setup on my car was not done by me. It was done by the guys at English Racing. We should really get somebody else to comment about speed density for you. @GST with PSI is a good guy to ask about things like this, maybe we can get him in here haha hear me Brett! Lots of other speed density freaks in here too. But I'll still be here too, learning something probably!

 

[gsx tuningart]

Yes,would be great!
I think that with evo 8 maf is more easy,but sd is better!

 

[We're on Boost]

Yes I think sd is better and it might cost less too!

 

[We're on Boost]

It seems to me that you would be safer with the 4 bar MAP sensor, because then you would be "covered" for any amount of boost that your turbo can possibly make.
With the 3 bar, you are covered up to about 29 psi boost. Maybe that is enough for your situation and maybe you will need to limit boost to about that anyway, due to limitations of the 100 RON gasoline.
But it would still be good to get somebody else to comment on this.

Be sure to take a look at this ECMtuning Wiki sometime: http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/sdsetup

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Wait....Isn't 1 bar 14.ish x 3 = 42???
Right??

 

[bastarddsm]

Man there is a lot of bad ideas posted in this thread. Anyway, your 750's are good for about 500whp on gasoline completely tapped out. I'd say 450 is a nice safe limit on them. I mean sersiously, I made 450whp on 750's and E85. Have them cleaned and flow tested to make sure they are in good shape and use them. Save your money there. If you want bigger I'd consider something in the 850-950cc/min area.

As for a turbo, a FP3052 or the new Xona equivlent is a nice setup and should get you the power you are seeking. It is also one of the more expensive options. It also doesn't guarantee you will make 450 either.

Personally, I think based on what you are looking for I'd head towards an old school FP Green, or whatever they have that is a modern equivalent. It will be the least hassle, and provide great power for the money.

I would not try and do it with a 68HTA. It might make that power, but it will not last long doing it.

If you are able to fabricate some of your own parts I'd look for an HX35, HY35, GT3076, S256 or something similar sized. In general an HX40 is more turbo than you need, and will be laggier than needed. Ideally your going to want something halfway modern with a 54-56mm compressor inducer, and a 58-60mm turbine exducer, and like a .63ar or 9cm housing. I don't know what you guys have over there, but if your going to the salvage yard, you will want something off about a 5-6l diesel.

I wouldn't mess with the bep bolt on stuff, unless you found a great deal and it fell into your lap.

I saw that you were looking at a tube header and 35R setup. That will make 450 with ease but it's going to be fairly laggy for a 450whp setup. Also at 450-500 look for a header small diameter primaries.

Good luck!

 

[bastarddsm]

We dont have headers, thats non turbo talk, we have a manifold,

I most certainly have a header on my turbo car. Don't be a jerk off about small details, and terminology that you think is correct.

ok ,i'm looking something good used about injectors.
second step is clear!
you think that i need of other parts for a good tuning?

I would avoid used injectors, I've had several customers with issues due to a bad injector when they got a "good deal" on a set of used injectors. Especially shipping them that far.

I think your other parts, cams etc, are in good shape - with the possible exception of the 2g MAF.

The Evo8 MAS is mentioned here because, as far as I know, you can use it with your DSMLink V3. Or go speed density which is what a lot of us are doing lately!

The 2g maf is good to 550whp or so. It starts being a bit of a restriction before that, but an evo8 maf would be too. Speed density will cure this, but it's harder to tune. I prefer a maf on my car even making 700+whp.

Wait....Isn't 1 bar 14.ish x 3 = 42???
Right??

Sort of. 1 bar is about 14.5psi, so 3 bar is 43.5. But remember that a map measures "Manifold Absolute Pressure". We typically think of gauge pressure. Our atmosphere is typically 14.5psia (psi-absolute) meaning we are 14.5psi above absolute vaccum, no pressure, vaccum of space, ect. Our boost gauge, and other normal pressure gauges are typically in psig, or (psi-guage). That is referenced to atmospheric pressure, so 0psig = 14.5psia, and 0psia = -14.5psig

So for example a 3bar map can measure from 0-3bar absolute. That's 0 to 43.5psia, or -14.5 to 29.5psig

 

[We're on Boost]

Wait....Isn't 1 bar 14.ish x 3 = 42???
Right??

Yes, but, you use that 1st bar just to get from absolute vacuum up to "Standard" atmospheric pressure (0psi of boost).
Then, if you have a 3 bar MAP sensor, that leaves you with 2 bars of range to measure "boost" with.

I would not be wild about buying used injectors either, because if I did, the first thing I would do with them is send them back to FIC for their ultrasonic cleaning and full flow testing service which costs $25 per injector plus shipping, plus you would want to buy new seals which are about $15 for a set. When you buy new injectors from FIC, new seals come with them, included in the price. In other words, used injectors would have to be really cheap in order to tempt me at all.

 

[gsx tuningart]

I saw that you were looking at a tube header and 35R setup. That will make 450 with ease but it's going to be fairly laggy for a 450whp setup. Also at 450-500 look for a header small diameter primaries.

Good luck!

Thanks for your reply.
No,It was a good offer like 700 euro(around 800usd)
But the money is not a problem.
Gt35 is too big for me.
So was thinking for a GT3076r.
what could I expect with stock gt3076r .63a/r and my configuration?
i mean range of spool and rpm.
i running with normal fuel 100(Ron).

 

[gsx tuningart]

It seems to me that you would be safer with the 4 bar MAP sensor, because then you would be "covered" for any amount of boost that your turbo can possibly make.
With the 3 bar, you are covered up to about 29 psi boost. Maybe that is enough for your situation and maybe you will need to limit boost to about that anyway, due to limitations of the 100 RON gasoline.
But it would still be good to get somebody else to comment on this.

Be sure to take a look at this ECMtuning Wiki sometime: http://www.ecmtuning.com/wiki/sdsetup

I think that 29 PSI is enough for me.
anyway, I can change the map sensor, this is not a problem.
The real problem is fuel.
the best I can find is the 100 (RON)
The E85 is like 105 or 109 don't remember, is correct?
maybe I can add some octane boost, but the price is really high in italy.
One gallon is about 3.7 liters,
In Italy a liter costs 1.8 euros
so a gallon for me are about 6.27 usd!
So if I add some octan booster the price is higher.
at the end of the story i need to run with fuel 100(RON)

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I have a tubular header on my car too....

 

[We're on Boost]

I think that 29 PSI is enough for me.
anyway, I can change the map sensor, this is not a problem.
The real problem is fuel.
the best I can find is the 100 (RON)
The E85 is like 105 or 109 don't remember, is correct?
maybe I can add some octane boost, but the price is really high in italy.
One gallon is about 3.7 liters,
In Italy a liter costs 1.8 euros
so a gallon for me are about 6.27 usd!
So if I add some octan booster the price is higher.
at the end of the story i need to run with fuel 100(RON)

Those E85 octane numbers are probably about right but here's the thing - people don't really talk about “octane” of E85 much anymore, because it doesn't cover what's actually going on. A google search on the words “heat of vaporization gasoline and ethanol” will find the right stuff, which I did, and here are some handy quotes from that which sort of explain it. "Heat of vaporization" - those are the magic words:

"Heat of vaporization is higher for ethanol than for gasoline, which means that more energy is required to evaporate the fuel thus lowering the engine temperatures. This can improve knock resistance as auto‐ignition is less likely to occur with a cooler engine. Cooling of the intake air may increase engine efficiency, because higher air density allows more fuel to be injected and internal and exhaust gas heat losses are lower." http://www.iea-amf.org/content/fuel_information/fuel_info_home/ethanol/e10/ethanol_properties

"The effect of charge cooling combined with the inherent high chemical octane of ethanol make it a very knock resistant fuel." http://papers.sae.org/2012-01-1277/

Sorry if you don't have E85 available there!

So yes, 100 RON will be a limitation but that is what you have, and as gasoline goes it’s a lot better than our 92 and 93 (R+M)/2 stuff. Probably high 20’s will be your boost limit with the GT3076. Larger turbos are more efficient and can go a little higher on pump gas, but then you lose power at the bottom end of the rev range.

If you want to spend 14 minutes watching a video in English (sorry! ) here is a really good video by Lucas English showing how much difference increasing ethanol content can make on a large turbo 4g63 car. No Italian subtitles, but there are English subtitles on the CC button, if that helps any:

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I'm sitting here laughing at these English subtitles. But most of them are right.

I don't think the 2g MAF is much of a restriction at the 450 whp level, so the gains by switching to SD would not be much. I think for simplicity you could stay with the MAF, and kind of save the switch to SD as something to try in the future if you get bored!

 

[Lou98GSX]

i would use meth injection to make more power.

 

[We're on Boost]

Thinking about your manifold modification: Here is what a DSM to T3 (round to rectangular) transition looks like, all boiled down into a half-inch thick mild steel plate. A shop in Louisiana sells these on ebay for $70. They can also make it from 304L Stainless Steel, or to custom specs.

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https://www.ebay.com/itm/DSM-1G-2G-...141937295138?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10

 

[gsx tuningart]

Thanks buddy! As I told you, we do not have a problem with things like this. I have all the machines to build my parts. The welding machine for tig and mig ,the lathe, the water jet cutter and a good friend with machine shop.
I talk with my friend for a long time and i think that i need to go step by step for many reason!
the first is that i don't know really how is my car with a big turbo.
my turbo is not at max output because the map is not really good now!
I need to try a good map on the dyno and see what happens.
Then ,i want to try with
cnc Avional A2024 compressor wheel on my turbo before change all my setup!
what you think?

 

[We're on Boost]

I can understand wanting to do it in steps, because that can be the most fun way, and for sure is the most educational.

The Avional A2024 compressor wheel is ??
Avional is an aluminum alloy, aircraft type, and 2024 is also an aluminum alloy.
That's all that means to me - it's a material. It doesn't tell me anything about the specific compressor wheel that you have in mind.

I happened to find an ECMTuning injector recommendation page that seems to me very simple and sensible. For your project, the injector they think is the best is the "FIC 1100cc High-Z". It's a little confusing because when you go to the FIC web site to find this, there isn't an 1100cc Hi-Z! But the one they are talking about is now called a 1200cc. On the FIC page it is called "1200cc (Previously 1100cc) (High-Z)". This is one of the injectors we talked about back in post #50.
Here is a pic of the chart ECMTuning shows:

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And a link to the page: http://www.ecmtuning.com/product_info.php?products_id=72

 

[gsx tuningart]

I can understand wanting to do it in steps, because that can be the most fun way, and for sure is the most educational.

The Avional A2024 compressor wheel is ??

Avional compressor wheel is a wheel built with CNC machine.
It is a good solution for all those turbines that require high performance at a high pressure, reducing drastically the risk of breaking the shaft.

1)Less turbo lag due to a lower moment of inertia
2)Less stress on the shaft allowing to increase the pressure (compared to the original)
3)AIR flow increase up to 20/30 %
4)Increase of resistance to fatigue due to centrifugal force.
5)more aerodynamic profile of the wings.

 

[Geeb]

Haha no problem, I use google translate and online conversions every day anyway.

That BMW that you posted the dyno for, I would be interested in knowing more about what that person did to the car. If you have a link to a page where he has information about his car posted, I'd like to take a look at it. Here in the USA, BMW's are expensive and difficult to modify to that level, and not many people do it. We also don't have 100 octane gas. I suppose, just guessing, that is what we call RON octane (Research method Octane Number) which if we had it here on a pump labeled R+M/2 it would probably be labeled as 96 octane. We don't have that either .

If you look at the dyno chart in my profile, you'll see the power comes on way too late to be like what you are looking for. You would need a turbo bigger than what you have but smaller than mine, so it comes onto boost sooner than mine does. You might want slightly milder cams than I have as well, for the same reason.
Even then you would have a hard time getting something that looks like the chart you showed for that 3 liter BMW.
But a couple of turbos I would think about are:
XR DSM 61-56 Ball Bearing Turbocharger http://www.forcedperformance.net/me...roduct_Code=XRDSM6156&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo
(this one uses an external wastegate)
or
FP RED for DSM http://www.forcedperformance.net/me...oduct_Code=NTDSMFPRED&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo
(this one uses an internal wastegate)

You make 650 whp on a 3582 with a .63ar turbine housing? Or is that a guess

My goal of 600 wheel with my 6165 (3582 comp wheel, 37r turbine wheel) was said to be unreachable with my .63..

 

[We're on Boost]

Avional compressor wheel is a wheel built with CNC machine.
It is a good solution for all those turbines that require high performance at a high pressure, reducing drastically the risk of breaking the shaft.

1)Less turbo lag due to a lower moment of inertia
2)Less stress on the shaft allowing to increase the pressure (compared to the original)
3)AIR flow increase up to 20/30 %
4)Increase of resistance to fatigue due to centrifugal force.
5)more aerodynamic profile of the wings.

That would be very interesting to try. For the same shaft power coming from the turbine wheel, you can get more compressor output, because the compressor wheel would be more aerodynamically efficient and lighter.

The potential for small companies to come up with stuff like this has improved radically over the last 20 years or so, due to so many improvements in computers and CFD analysis. I think it’s really cool. I am kind of assuming this is from a small company, but what company or shop is it? Searching in English I still don’t find anything specific for these wheels, so all I’ve seen is the pictures you posted. Using “Search google for this image” on your pictures gets a whole lot of stuff and I see one that is made to be an upgrade for the Garrett GT28. Do you have a specific wheel picked out?
The page I see right now is in Italian, it translates very well, and the link is this: https://www.kijiji.it/annunci/ricam...te-ricavata-dal-pieno-upgrade-gt28rs/57553113

 

[gsx tuningart]

That would be very interesting to try. For the same shaft power coming from the turbine wheel, you can get more compressor output, because the compressor wheel would be more aerodynamically efficient and lighter.

Correct!!
Your link is a promotion ad from reseller!
You Can find the direct URL in the page.
http://www.turbochargerworld.it
This is a link for download complete catalogue avional

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&sour...ZAu0QFggnMAA&usg=AOvVaw38xCbNQVt1Olm4WsRyyWiO

 

[We're on Boost]

You make 650 whp on a 3582 with a .63ar turbine housing? Or is that a guess

My goal of 600 wheel with my 6165 (3582 comp wheel, 37r turbine wheel) was said to be unreachable with my .63..

Yes it made 650 whp on the English Racing awd Dynojet. That was with 60% ethanol/40% 92 octane pump gas in the tank.
They were using about 70% duty cycle from the boost controller on that run. I had told them that I wasn't interested in pushing it to the ragged edge and that if they got it pretty easily to 650 they should just stop right there, no more dyno runs.
Numbers on a Mustang dyno would be lower usually, and SAE type correction would give numbers about 2.5% lower than STD correction.

I have the dyno chart and most of the mods all shown in my profile. The "Performance" tab shows what the atmospheric conditions were.

Your turbo, I guess you are talking about the PT&E 6165? Is that a CEA, or a GEN2 CEA, or was it before CEA?
Anyway, I would think it could do 600 whp if you are giving it E85 or even E70, or race gas, with the .63 housing, but I haven't followed the PT&E turbos enough to know what to expect from it.
All I can say is that with my own car, when I was in the talking stages with English Racing, they told me they had never gotten more than about 700 whp from an FP HTA3582, even with full E85 and .82 a/r turbine housing with 3 inch turbine outlet.
On my car, I was willing to give away some top end in order to gain some on the bottom end, and for a more compact installation. So we did some things that were aimed that way. My turbine housing, not only is it .63ar, but it is only a 2.5" turbine outlet, T31 style which is a short outlet, nothing fancy. The O2 housing is only 2.5", but it is a really nice one, smooth, made by Shearer Fab. So my downpipe has a 2.5" flange on it and goes up to 3" diameter about an inch after the flange, and the exhaust is 3" the rest of the way.
The other thing I told them was that I would be mixing 92 pump gas with E85 and probably only running about E40 or E50 most of the time, never full E85 in the tank, which is why they did my final dyno run on only E60. So, you can begin to see where even giving some things away, this turbo had no trouble making 650 on their Dynojet, with the .63 a/r housing. Take a look at the rest of my mods though, in my profile. There is a lot of good stuff there.

 

[We're on Boost]

This is a link for download complete catalogue avional

https://www.google.it/url?sa=t&sour...ZAu0QFggnMAA&usg=AOvVaw38xCbNQVt1Olm4WsRyyWiO

Wow they show a lot of wheels in there, and a lot of applications. I see Garrett, Holset, BorgWarner K series and BV series, Mitsubishi ........
Do they have one there correct for your turbo? Maybe a CWMFS-G-227 or a CWMFS-G-228?