2G What missing for 450/500whp target?

[gsx tuningart]

Hi guys,
my 95 gsx have around 350 hp at 15/16 psi boost. But max output from turbo is 20psi and i have the same hp.
i don't know if i need of something more .
Any advice is appreciated
This is the list of my built:
6 bolt block
Stock crank
Eagle Rod
Arias pistons 86,00 8.8
Arp head and main stud
King xp Rod and main bearing
Fidanza aluminium flywheel
Act 2600 pp act 6 puck disk.
Competition clutch fork
Cometic head gasket
7 bolt ported head
Magnus intake Manifold
1g throttle body
1g cas
Cams hks 272 272
3g lifters
Gsc valve stem seals
Fidanza adjustable CAM gear
720 injector
Aem fuel rail
Aem fpr
Walbro255 rewired
Dnp exhaust manifold
Mvr44 Tial
Greddy fv recirculate
2,5 piping and fmic
Aem Wide band
Omnipower 3bar map sensor
Ecmlink v3
Turbo : Garrett TB 03
C.wheels ex.68,9mm in.48,8mm
T.wheels ex.48,7mm in.58,9mm
Bullseyes housing
3" downpipe and cat back
Mbc

 

[We're on Boost]

Sorry!! Again!!!

Haha no problem, I use google translate and online conversions every day anyway.

That BMW that you posted the dyno for, I would be interested in knowing more about what that person did to the car. If you have a link to a page where he has information about his car posted, I'd like to take a look at it. Here in the USA, BMW's are expensive and difficult to modify to that level, and not many people do it. We also don't have 100 octane gas. I suppose, just guessing, that is what we call RON octane (Research method Octane Number) which if we had it here on a pump labeled R+M/2 it would probably be labeled as 96 octane. We don't have that either .

If you look at the dyno chart in my profile, you'll see the power comes on way too late to be like what you are looking for. You would need a turbo bigger than what you have but smaller than mine, so it comes onto boost sooner than mine does. You might want slightly milder cams than I have as well, for the same reason.
Even then you would have a hard time getting something that looks like the chart you showed for that 3 liter BMW.
But a couple of turbos I would think about are:
XR DSM 61-56 Ball Bearing Turbocharger http://www.forcedperformance.net/me...roduct_Code=XRDSM6156&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo
(this one uses an external wastegate)
or
FP RED for DSM http://www.forcedperformance.net/me...oduct_Code=NTDSMFPRED&Category_Code=DSM-Turbo
(this one uses an internal wastegate)

 

[gsx tuningart]

Was a car of my friend.
i don't know exactly what has under the hood. I can ask to him.
You right ,about the fuel.
We have
normal fuel95(RON)
shell Vpower 98(RON)
Agip blu super 100(RON)

i know, that i can't go to the same torque, but i would be happy if i can make like 420/430 ft/lb torque.

 

[We're on Boost]

Aha, Shell Vpower 98 RON, I think there are a few places in the USA where that is sold, but not where I live.

Take a look at the log posted by @GST with PSI in post #317, here: http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsis-galant-vr4-1837-2000.482807/page-13
He is using a turbo here called the FP3052 which was kind of the predecessor to the "XR DSM 61-56 Ball Bearing Turbocharger" - uses the same turbine housing and same or similar turbine wheel, but slightly smaller compressor wheel. He doesn't have a dyno chart for this yet, but you can look at the boost curve (red curve) and the numbers which show MAP at 29.7 psi at 4037 RPM. Torque curve would follow the boost curve pretty close. This is a good thread to browse through anyway, for ideas. The dyno chart he shows in his profile is older, done with his previous smaller turbo. Anyway, making 30 psi by 4000 RPM is really good on one of these cars, and then the boost could peak at 35 psi or so a little higher in the rev range, to get lots of torque. Not sure what happens when you go that high (35 psi) boost on your 100 RON gasoline. Here we use either E85 or race gas to go that high with the boost, or water methanol injection.

 

[gsx tuningart]

Thanks for your help.
This is the log of my car at 14,5 psi boost
Now i have 22psi of boost and is something better.
Sorry but some value is metric!

 

[We're on Boost]

This is the log of my car at 14,5 psi boost
Now i have 22psi of boost and is something better.

Yes, 250 gm/sec Airflow, that is about 33.5 pounds per minute, and that is really good for only 1 bar of boost. So you must have a lot of things right!

Those 2g pictures in your photos, those are some really sharp looking cars. Is that 3 different cars? Is one yours?

 

[gsx tuningart]

It's my car, all' three version!
Shine was 2005, chrome 2006 ,Red and Black 2007,
Back to all Black oem restyling in 2010.
Last year ,i make a complete rebuild,exterior,.interior ,engine etc.
This is now!
I need to take my time and update my dsm profile and make a build journals!

 

[pauleyman]

It Isn't the amount of torque it's where in the RPM curve you make it. You will likely never have the area under the Curve the BMW has. So the question remains what exactly are you doing with the car? If you are 100% Street driven you may not be happy with how the car performs even though it's making good power. The car can be a lot more fun at lower power depending upon how you drive it. You need to understand the compromises involved with a bigger turbo versus a smaller Turbo. If you're only interested in making a number then by all means buy something bigger. What I'm getting at here is you won't have the lower RPM Power that you may have seen with smaller turbos. This means you will be shifting a lot more if you want to get into the Power Band of a larger Turbo. You should consider not only the turbo but the gear ratios in the transmission as well. This is why I suggested that this is an entire project and not just about a turbo. So I will ask again what is it that you do with the car? That should be the singular question you answer in order to figure out how you want to build your car.

 

[gsx tuningart]

ok,i understand that i can't make a same torque range of my friend.
I'm not so far of my target ,my car is fun.
i would want a little more power.
i drive on the street,and i would want make a run on the track sometime.
we have a lot of circuit,but don't have many track for drag race.So, i prefer a car balanced, and not a car just for shot!

This is the log of this morning ,i need some tuning again, but the car is not bad!

 

[We're on Boost]

It's my car, all' three version!
Shine was 2005, chrome 2006 ,Red and Black 2007,
Back to all Black oem restyling in 2010.
Last year ,i make a complete rebuild,exterior,.interior ,engine etc.
This is now!
I need to take my time and update my dsm profile and make a build journals!

Those 3 versions are beautiful!
I still think the 2g DSM is one of the best body styles ever put on the road. Yours is extra good!

From the log, looks like it reaches about 39 pounds per minute, boost peaking at around 20 psi (from the Omni Power 3 bar) then dropping off. Seems to be running pretty rich at WOT, but maybe that is so you can have the timing advanced a lot. Anyway it works and it looks like maybe the speed limits in Italy are still a lot more liberal than here in the USA .

If you normally start accelerating with 4000 or more RPM on it, then maybe you don't need a ton of torque at 3000 rpm like the turbo bimmers have. I've been browsing around in a BMW M2 forum lately and I'm seeing all these cars that make over 400 foot-pounds of torque before 3000 rpm, but then the torque drops steadily above 4,500 rpm, and they shut it off at 6,700 rpm like your friend's car did too. With your DSM, you'll probably just be starting higher and ending higher in the rev range, no matter what you do. Plus with the DSM, you can do it so your torque holds up pretty well all the way past 7,500 instead of dropping off so much, and that's fun too. Kind of makes my hair stand up like when's this thing going to quit ? and it never does.

 

[gsx tuningart]

Plus with the DSM, you can do it so your torque holds up pretty well all the way past 7,500 instead of dropping off so much, and that's fun too. Kind of makes my hair stand up like when's this thing going to quit ? and it never does.

Yes, i like it!
Also ,I think that my turbo is at max output now!

 

[We're on Boost]

Yes, i like it!
Also ,I think that my turbo is at max output now!

It sure seems like it is, because boost starts dropping after 5700 rpm already, and airflow barely increases as the rpm goes up from there. Although I don't know what that turbo is "rated" at for flow, by Garrett.
It's also possible that there is a limitation with your boost controller. Member "GST with PSI" had a go-around with that just before he switched to a larger turbo. It's pretty interesting reading, here, where he starts to talk about an Ingersoll Rand Boost Control Solenoid to replace the one he was using. Post #277, #286, #291. http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/gstwithpsis-galant-vr4-1837-2000.482807/page-12

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I think this would be beautiful on your car, or any car!

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[gsx tuningart]

I think this would be beautiful on your car, or any car!

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

yes, is beautiful,but i live in italy, so the price is very expensive for me, because i have hard shipping and customs tax! i need to pay around 3000 USD for this turbo, without wastegate!
I need to find a turbo with this specs in europe.Is not easy.
I need to check if i can put some chra in my bullseyes turbine housing.
Like garrett gt3076r chra and compressor cover. You know if is possible?
this is my setup now and spec about my chra!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Put a Holset on it

 

[gsx tuningart]

Put a Holset on it

yes , is a possibilities, but i prefer chra with oil and water line.
anyway is a option!

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

I thought it may be a cheaper option for you in Europe. One of my HX40's came off of a bus from Europe so they can be found. While running with water is nice, I have never had a problem with my units only running with oil. In fact, when serviced, my turbo man says "what ever you are doing, keep doing it. The thrust surfaces show almost NO wear" so don't let it scare you. Just don't go doing a hard pull and then shut the car immediately off, that is the only rule of thumb I have used, no turbo timer on my car. They will definitely get you the HP you are looking for with the correct supporting mods.
They are laggy though, so if you are looking for instant spool, they aren't the correct turbo. But they do pull like a freight train........choo choo

 

[gsx tuningart]

They are laggy though, so if you are looking for instant spool, they aren't the correct turbo. But they do pull like a freight train........choo choo

Yes,i can find the Holset.
Ok,i understend about the oil.
i need of info about this. you tell me that is laggy ,how is laggy ? example:
if you are around 3000/3500 rpm and push a wot ,how is the feeling?

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

It starts "breathing" at 4000, I see full 36# at around 4600 all the way to 8500 and hits VERY hard when it comes in. I run a set of Kelford 264 cams though and they themselves are a bit laggy because of their lift.

 

[gsx tuningart]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/dsm-profiles/1gb-eagle-talon-turbo-awd-holset-hx35.11506/

i have seen his video ,if is like this......
yes!! is much laggy for me!

 

[We're on Boost]

yes, is beautiful,but i live in italy, so the price is very expensive for me, because i have hard shipping and customs tax! i need to pay around 3000 USD for this turbo, without wastegate!
I need to find a turbo with this specs in europe.Is not easy.
I need to check if i can put some chra in my bullseyes turbine housing.
Like garrett gt3076r chra and compressor cover. You know if is possible?
this is my setup now and spec about my chra!

Wow, that's a clean and neat engine bay, thanks for the pics!
I notice now you already have an external Tial wastegate on the manifold, which is good.

Keeping the bullseye turbine housing, I doubt that will be possible, because if it is made to properly fit your current CHRA which has a 48mm exducer on the turbine wheel, the GT30 turbine wheel has a 55mm exducer - way bigger! There could be other things about it too that don't match up.

Just wild-fishing around for larger Garrett turbos with smaller turbine wheels, I notice that the new G25-550 and G25-650 turbos both have turbine wheels very close to the same size as your TB3. Kind of surprising. But they appear to be V-band attachment to the CHRA. I imagine you have a snap-ring arrangement there now? So it's probably pretty different. Still those G25 series turbos look very interesting. They are about the size you are looking for. They also list them on turbosbytm.
I see on the diagram for the G25 on turbobygarrett.com they are only 169mm (6.7") across the outside of the compressor housing. That's a nice compact size. This whole turbo looks very compact to me.
But your DNP exhaust manifold probably has a round DSM style outlet, right?
So, probably what makes sense for a not-too-expensive turbo is an FP RED for DSM with wastegate option called "External Wastegate on Manifold" which they don't show a picture of but the option is listed. It's not ball bearings though.

 

[gsx tuningart]

Wow, that's a clean and neat engine bay, thanks for the pics!
I notice now you already have an external Tial wastegate on the manifold, which is good.

Keeping the bullseye turbine housing, I doubt that will be possible, because if it is made to properly fit your current CHRA which has a 48mm exducer on the turbine wheel, the GT30 turbine wheel has a 55mm exducer - way bigger! There could be other things about it too that don't match up.

Thanks man!
there is a reason because i can't porting my turbine housing from 48 to 55mm?
I'm a professional custom builder and i have a friend with a good machine shop .
So ,welding porting etc ,is not a problem!
Or, i can take a gt3076r chra with compressor housing and turbine housing like this, and cut the dsm flange in my manifold and weld new t3 flange and built a new o2 housing for this.

 

[We're on Boost]

Thanks man!
there is a reason because i can't porting my turbine housing from 48 to 55mm?
I'm a professional custom builder and i have a friend with a good machine shop .
So ,welding porting etc ,is not a problem!
Or, i can take a gt3076r chra with compressor housing and turbine housing like this, and cut the dsm flange in my manifold and weld new t3 flange and built a new o2 housing for this.

Aha, friend with machine shop and welding – very good!

I’m doubtful about boring the exducer part of the Bullseye housing out to fit a 55mm exducer. You would be taking 3.5mm off of the wall thickness there. I’m afraid that what is left would be too thin and crack in use. Also the GT30 inducer is much bigger so that part of the housing would probably need boring also. I am not familiar enough with the Bullseye housing to know if maybe they used the same casting for the GT30 housing that they used for your TB3. If so, and the difference is all in the machining, then maybe you could do it that way. But I am thinking that, going from a small “T” wheel to a larger “GT” wheel, the turbine housing really needs to be right.

So I think I like the 2nd idea better, where you modify the manifold to a T3 outlet. The pic you show of the turbine housing – that’s beautiful! As far as I can tell, that would be a genuine Garrett 740902-0008 housing with T3 inlet and 3” V-band outlet. Except I don’t see the word “Garrett” on it and I don’t see the part number on it, so I’m wondering why that is? Also, if you are looking for good response at the lower end of the RPM range, you would probably want the .63 a/r version of that housing, which is Garrett part number 740902-0009. (The one you show is an .82 a/r)

With that housing, you for sure have something that is made from the ground up to be perfect for the GT3076 turbine wheel and CHRA.

You can also get that “GT” style turbine housing with a 3” 4-bolt outlet, but V-band is nice, nicer probably.

Here is a Garrett chart that shows the part numbers for these housings:

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And here is an ATP web page that shows the same part numbers: https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/mercha...tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-044&Category_Code=GTH

These “GT” style Garrett housings do have a fairly long neck on the turbine outlet so it takes some space, going around the 90 degree bend with your O2 housing. If that works, it’s good, it’s the best! If it doesn’t work for interference reasons, then another style worth considering, which is more compact, is the “T31” type housings which are shown on the ATP web site, here, and this is actually what I have on my car: https://www.atpturbo.com/mm5/mercha...tp&Product_Code=ATP-HSG-055&Category_Code=GTH


I’m looking at the 6-bolt attachment from turbine housing to CHRA on these GT turbos and I think that also works for the GTX series 1, but I think the GTX series II has something different there? And for sure the “G25” series has something different there. Maybe that doesn’t matter, just thought I’d mention it.

 

[gsx tuningart]

All right!!
Picture of turbine housing is Just for example! I take from here. i am in search of more info as possible!
http://turbolabofamerica.com/garrett-gt3076r-turbine-housing-63-vs-82-vs-1-06-ar/
Yes, 63a/r inlet and 3" vband outlet maybe is better!
Thanks for your time man!
It's a pleasure speak with you!

 

[We're on Boost]

All right!!
Thanks for your time man!
It's a please speak with you!

You are welcome!!

I found - here's what ATP says about Gen2 GTX fitting GT turbine housings:
The Garrett GEN2 GTX3076R fits turbine housings for Garrett GT30 (standard size) and GTX30 series turbochargers with a 60mm inducer and 84 trim turbine wheel.

And that is exactly what you would have, 60mm inducer and 84 trim, so if you went with that Garrett housing and you wanted to go completely crazy some day with a bigger turbo, you could plug it right in!

 

[gsx tuningart]

Great, i don't think for now,but never Say never!
Ok,i think that the choice for turbo is done!
Injector size 1250 or 1650?

 

[We're on Boost]

Great, i don't think for now,but never Say never!
Ok,i think that the choice for turbo is done!
Injector size 1250 or 1650?

Well 1250cc is plenty for the GT3076 running on gasoline.
I'm not sure which ones you are talking about though, because on the FIC page they don't actually have any DSM injectors that they call a 1250cc.
They show a 1220cc Low-Z for $365 - these are made to use the stock resistor pack.
They show a 1200cc High-Z for $520 - for these you remove the resistor pack.
http://fuelinjectorclinic.com/dsm-evo-1-9

As far as I know either one should be very good - but I don't know what experiences people may have had with them.

The 1650cc is shown now in the High-Z version only (this is what I have in my car) for yikes $840. I thought they also made a Low-Z model of the 1650 but they don't show it now. The reason I did not get Low-Z 1650cc is because Lucas English sort of told me not to get those!
The reason I got injectors this big was to use ethanol up to 70% or so in my fuel, with 650 whp. They are nice, I like them, but not needed - not until you go completely crazy
I got the High-Z because they are the most modern technology and they are reputed to have better running at low load, cold starts, idling, etc, where a large injector normally has some trouble. That's for the 1650. I don't know if the same thing applies to the 1220 vs 1200.