What can cause rod knock in 5 miles?

[laserspeeddemon]

So gut check time:

I've been going through my mind and trying to figure out what I could have done that contributed to the rod knock. There is only ONE thing I can think of.

I primed the motor when I first put it back together oil pan to valve cover. I primed the motor by using a 14mm socket on a high speed drill on the oil pump sprocket. I rotated the engine by hand very slowly to ensure that the entire bearing(s) got coated. It took me about 4 months to finish the car after that.

When it came to starting the car, I read a few threads that recommended priming the oil pump by removing the spark plugs, disabling fuel/spark and using the starter to turn the engine (including the oil pump) and that would prime the motor. I tried it and I didn't see any oil come to the top of the motor. It may have been a total of 30-60 seconds of cranking. When I didn't see any oil coming to the head, I made the decision to remove the timing belt and use a drill again. Oil came to the top and I figured that was good enough. Confirmed oil was coming to the top and I had 70 psi cold pressure and good oil pressure after I started the car.

Could this have contributed to the failure?

 

[1983gsp]

No. The engine was just freewheeling with the plugs out and being turned by the starter. There's no load on the bearings.

 

[NHerron]

I had the same question when I tried to prime the system with the engine in car. Since cold idle is only about 20psi @ 750 rpm I didn't like the idea of cranking forever @ 200rpms so I just started it up and oil pressure was almost instant. As long as you used assembly lube and primed with the drill I would not place blame in that area

I don't have alot of experience with specific engine noises but could it be piston slap since your using forged and more clearance is required than cast for the purpose of expansion..?

 

[crimsondragon]

Are you running an external oil cooler?

 

[JusMX141]

I never prime with the oil pump, I've used this method on every 4G63 I've ever built:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/art...pump-timing-components-already-installed.html

^ Only I use a $10 suction gun instead of that ghetto pump he has there. You can drop the engine in the car with no oil in the pan this way- then put a couple quarts in the pan, fill the system with oil while someone cranks the engine, and it will be ready to roll with no guesswork.

Fill the suction gun, hook it up to the pipe nipple and clamp it with a small hose clamp, the slowly depress the plunger while someone cranks. You'll know when the oil system is primed- you will no longer be able to push the plunger in. Simply disconnect the hose, remove the nipple, thread in your oil sender, check the oil level at the dipstick to verify it's full, and the engine is ready to start. Takes about 5 minutes total time.

 

[ed1380]

I've used the drill oil pump method and the cranking with no plugs method. Both engines are currently healthy. Assembly library provides enough lubrication to turn it over

I had the same question when I tried to prime the system with the engine in car. Since cold idle is only about 20psi @ 750 rpm I didn't like the idea of cranking forever @ 200rpms so I just started it up and oil pressure was almost instant. As long as you used assembly lube and primed with the drill I would not place blame in that area

I don't have alot of experience with specific engine noises but could it be piston slap since your using forged and more clearance is required than cast for the purpose of expansion..?

 

[NHerron]

Not sure what you mean

I cranked with no plugs and no fuse for probably 2 mins total with time between for starter to rest. I didn't want to keep doin that somewhat dry if it would take forever to see oil get to the head. The electric drill turns that sprocket faster than the starter could and the drill still took a bit to see oil in the head. Besides, oil pressure was almost instant when the engine was started anyway

 

[laserspeeddemon]

So we can say that free wheeling with the starter is NOT the cause of engine failure?

Are you running an external oil cooler?

I am. I added about 1/2 quart in oil pan to compensate for the oil that resides in the oil cooler/hoses.

 

[ed1380]

Not sure what you mean

I cranked with no plugs and no fuse for probably 2 mins total with time between for starter to rest. I didn't want to keep doin that somewhat dry if it would take forever to see oil get to the head. The electric drill turns that sprocket faster than the starter could and the drill still took a bit to see oil in the head. Besides, oil pressure was almost instant when the engine was started anyway

I meant that both methods work and are not the cause. On the recent motor I only cranked my engine for 30 seconds before firing it up, oil pressure gauge reading 0psi at 180rpm. It shot up to 100 when I put the plugs in and it started. As long as you have assembly lube on the crank and in the oil pump gears(to help prime) either way will work fine.

I honestly believe it's debris in the crank or nicked journal. My buddy drove his car(1g 2.3) for 30k miles after he bought it. I rebuild his engine this winter because it started knocking. The previous owner used an ebay stubby shaft. It wore the crap out of his oil pump housing to the point that it had almost 1/8" of side to side play. All it took was a 150k mi oil pump from the junk yard, and some new bearings and he's back on the road now.

If you had good oil pressure and still probably do, then your pumping assembly is fine. With your deployment coming up, I honestly don't know if it would be better to just fix it yourself or go after the shop

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Well how the shop responds depends on how I direct people towards or away from the shop. Normally, I keep it under wraps who the shop is, but I sang the shop praises in so many places and now people are aware of what happened to the motor.

With the retarded (I mean RETARDED) amount of money that I'm getting from this deployment, I don't NEED the shop assistance. I just want to see how they react and whether they are legit or just put up a show.

 

[LordDigi]

... With the retarded (I mean RETARDED) amount of money that I'm getting from this deployment ...

Yeah, it's not bad if you don't have any bills to pay. Even an E3 can bring home 20K and it only goes up from there.

If I were you, I would just store it and buy my parts throughout the deployment. Work on it when you get back.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Yeah, it's not bad if you don't have any bills to pay. Even an E3 can bring home 20K and it only goes up from there.

If I were you, I would just store it and buy my parts throughout the deployment. Work on it when you get back.

Not going in a uniform this time. IT Contractor with a VERY specific and unique skill set. I don't want to brag so I won't say how much.

 

[JusMX141]

You didn't use an oil cooler that came from an engine that blew previously or anything like that, did you? It's nearly impossible to clean all of the crap out of an oil cooler.

 

[GaryChios]

Spum bearings is bad assembly in my experience. Bad assembly also means not checking clearances or out of round situations etc..

Oil Starvation would seize up the crank and cams real quick. That has happened to me when a new oil pump failed about 1 hour after it was running.


Either way, It sucks and after all the money you spent, I would have gone with a magnus shortblock. At least Marco stands behind his stuff.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

You didn't use an oil cooler that came from an engine that blew previously or anything like that, did you? It's nearly impossible to clean all of the crap out of an oil cooler.

No this was brand new.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Well I dropped the oil pan. Double checked where I thought I could have messed up. 1) Oil squirters not installed 2) Balance Shaft Bearings not installed (and rotated). I was good on both accounts. So if the car was primed correctly before start up and I had good oil pressure throughout the idling and running. There is nothing to suggest that oil starvation was the cause of the failure.

Here is a video of Cylinder 4.
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/u9Mcv3Z-b9w" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>


I do have one question. ALl of the rods can slide side to side (not up and down like cylinder 4 can). Is this normal?

 

[crimsondragon]

Yes. Normal side to side play should be .002 to .008 if I remember correctly. I think it's the same measurement as the crankshaft thrust play.

So #4 rod shit the deck if I read it correctly? Have you pulled it apart to check it yet?

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Not yet. No point. I leave in 4 days. I just want to spend time with my family. I'll call the shop tomorrow. If they agree to remove, rebuild and reinstall the engine. We are good. If not, move on. Go 2.3L


I'm also planning on winning the Lottery.

 

[crimsondragon]

Aw don't leave us hanging! The suspense to what killed that rod is killing me!

 

[pj91gsx]

Is your balance shaft eliminator installed with both bearings? My front one wasn't and I made it 5 miles.

This! Common mistake. Another common mistake is having the main bearing backwards(top in the bottom bottom in the top), which blocks off the oil pressure to the rods and mains.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Yes, both were installed. I may drop the rod/main caps just to check them out. Depends on how much time I have.
===========
More good news. Here is the oil pan. Don't know why I didn't think to check this before. There is definitely some serious bearing material in there.

 

[crash89]

Yea sooo, Im pretty sure I spun a rod bearing tonight while dialing in my Hx35.. I managed to make it 800 miles.. The car made a hour and a half trip up north and back just fine along with driving all weekend.. Then tonight we made it to 23 psi on pump gas and it started knocking.. Ill post back with some pics when I take the pan off..

PS: its normal to have side to side play as in your video..

 

[mattasi]

So gut check time:

I've been going through my mind and trying to figure out what I could have done that contributed to the rod knock. There is only ONE thing I can think of.

I primed the motor when I first put it back together oil pan to valve cover. I primed the motor by using a 14mm socket on a high speed drill on the oil pump sprocket. I rotated the engine by hand very slowly to ensure that the entire bearing(s) got coated. It took me about 4 months to finish the car after that.

When it came to starting the car, I read a few threads that recommended priming the oil pump by removing the spark plugs, disabling fuel/spark and using the starter to turn the engine (including the oil pump) and that would prime the motor. I tried it and I didn't see any oil come to the top of the motor. It may have been a total of 30-60 seconds of cranking. When I didn't see any oil coming to the head, I made the decision to remove the timing belt and use a drill again. Oil came to the top and I figured that was good enough. Confirmed oil was coming to the top and I had 70 psi cold pressure and good oil pressure after I started the car.

Could this have contributed to the failure?

Not at all. I also cranked mine for 30-60 seconds with no plugs to get oil to the head, but I also never got oil to the head, so I gave up that day. Come to find out, this is normal because the starter isn't high enough rpm to get oil to move much. So it was just started up the next day, and it was fine.

 

[laserspeeddemon]

Yea sooo, Im pretty sure I spun a rod bearing tonight while dialing in my Hx35.. I managed to make it 800 miles.. The car made a hour and a half trip up north and back just fine along with driving all weekend.. Then tonight we made it to 23 psi on pump gas and it started knocking.. Ill post back with some pics when I take the pan off..

PS: its normal to have side to side play as in your video..

Yes, side to side play is normal. But it should be between .10mm-0.25mm. THe play is OBVIOUSLY to lose, it feels more like 1mm-2mm. Though I'm not exactly sure how they managed to do that. THe rods were in good condition. Their Manley I-beams rods. And unless the shaved the rods or the crank fillet radius they should be within spec.
======
So I just pulled the rod bearing on cylinder 4. I can't find my phone right now so no pictures right now. However, there is definitely some foreign debris embedded into the bottom side bearing.

 

[crimsondragon]

Did you say you spun the bearing or no? Either way sounds like negligence.