Well it's new engine time!

[bluegs03]

Hey guys im creating this thread for questions and the such that i will have during my engine build up.

Heres the story, bought a eclipse without test driving, or seeing it in person. Needless to say of course i got screwed over, oh well live learn and then get diapers. Im just glad i didnt spend more than a grand on it.
Ok then heres the engine problems, first was the cylinder head which i had to replace, did the gasket at the same time. That fixed the ruined valves but the bottom end is still destroyed. I managed to get the engine out of the car finally after way to much effort and cursing. Turns out the 4th piston has all of the ringlands cracked and falling apart. Plus every single compression ring was brittle and burnt from overheating thus they cracked into pieces upon taking them off.

So the plan is:**updated**
stock pistons and rings ( i will never see close to 400whp on this car so no need for wiesco's) unknown price
arp rod boltsEXTREME PSI
arp main bolts
one new rod $15
machine rods for oversized bearings. 45$
new rod bearings! $10ish
new main bearings $20
turn crankshaft (maybe) $45
Cylinder hone out to .20 over ,clean and deck the block $80
balance shaft removal $30

 

[bluegs03]

Ok first question, one of my rod bearings was compeltely destroyed, and im afraid it damaged the crankshaft. I know its a long shot but do you guys think that this crankshaft is resuable? From the looks of it, the crankshaft seems ok but the white streaks on the crankshaft have me worried. Also is there anything else that could be causing there to be copper shavings in my oil pan (rod bearings??) Tell me what ya think

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What are these copper thingys!!?!? rod bearing pieces?

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[twicks69]

That looks like quite a bit of damage to the crank rod journals. You will need to have the crank inspected by a good machinist to see if a .010" under will fix the problem -- likely, it will not considering the damage, but it is worth checking.

Second, that is a heck of alot of copper. The copper would be from the main bearings or the rod bearings. Have you inspected the main bearings yet? Is there any discoloration to the crank around the bearing areas -- bluing or purpling from overheating?

That does not look too good -- especially if that motor had its ring lands trashed also -- a .020" over might not cover it -- you will also need to have a machinist check this before purchasing pistons. You might need to do a .030" or .040" piston setup.

As well, if you have bent rods or damage to any of them, it is in your best interests to completely replace them.

You are able to get main and rod bearings for our engines in standard size (STD) or .010" under size (-.010" or -.25mm).

You will also want to have the main caps inspected for damage, and I would reccomend having the machinist align hone the mains using a torque plate to straighten them out.

Even replacing with stock parts, you will be looking at quite a bit of money.

You might want to look for a pre-built replacement engine; such as a buschur stage 1 engine, or equivilant.

You will also need to factor in new ARP main studs, front cover/oil pump, oil pickup, gaskets, fresh freeze plugs/oil squirters, etc, balance shaft elimination kit, timing belt accessories, etc.

If the machinist is able to fix the block, expect $750-1000 in labor alone-- hopefully it is cheaper, but not likely.

If you end up going with aftermarket rods such as Eagle rods, they already come with ARP rod bolts (specific to the rod), so you will not need to purchase a second set.

 

[JaxTalonTSi]

Yes, as twicks69 said, the copper material found in the pan is most likely rod and/or main bearings. Your crank is most likely toast.

Some people believe in turning cranks, I personally will not use a turned crank. You claim you will not see alot of power in this engine, in which case this isn't as important, but none the less, even if the machinist says the crank can be saved by turning it, turning the crank removes the nitride coating from the crank, which gives the crank alot of it's strength. Taking this coating off and removing material weakens the crank. My reccomendation would be to find another unturned 6 bolt crank, or, considering the amount of work needed to be done, another whole complete undestroyed 6 bolt short or longblock.

If you chose to get just a new crank, you can always just buy a set of TopLine .20 over pistons, and hang them on stock rods. Have the blocked hot tanked, decked, bored .20 over, and assmbled if you don't think you are up to the task of putting it together. As Twicks said earlier, since this would be a new rebuild, a new oil pump, water pump, and timing belt components should be added to the cost, as is a new engine gasket it (the factory kit is about $200 and is superior in alot of ways to any Felpro or TopLine kit).

 

[bluegs03]

That looks like quite a bit of damage to the crank rod journals. You will need to have the crank inspected by a good machinist to see if a .010" under will fix the problem -- likely, it will not considering the damage, but it is worth checking.

Second, that is a heck of alot of copper. The copper would be from the main bearings or the rod bearings. Have you inspected the main bearings yet? Is there any discoloration to the crank around the bearing areas -- bluing or purpling from overheating?

That does not look too good -- especially if that motor had its ring lands trashed also -- a .020" over might not cover it -- you will also need to have a machinist check this before purchasing pistons. You might need to do a .030" or .040" piston setup.

As well, if you have bent rods or damage to any of them, it is in your best interests to completely replace them.

You are able to get main and rod bearings for our engines in standard size (STD) or .010" under size (-.010" or -.25mm).

You will also want to have the main caps inspected for damage, and I would reccomend having the machinist align hone the mains using a torque plate to straighten them out.

Even replacing with stock parts, you will be looking at quite a bit of money.

You might want to look for a pre-built replacement engine; such as a buschur stage 1 engine, or equivilant.

You will also need to factor in new ARP main studs, front cover/oil pump, oil pickup, gaskets, fresh freeze plugs/oil squirters, etc, balance shaft elimination kit, timing belt accessories, etc.

If the machinist is able to fix the block, expect $750-1000 in labor alone-- hopefully it is cheaper, but not likely.

If you end up going with aftermarket rods such as Eagle rods, they already come with ARP rod bolts (specific to the rod), so you will not need to purchase a second set.

Thanks so much for the information. Yes it is a ton of copper shavings! An entire rod bearing was missing from the rod so im guessing thats why there are so many copper shavings! but the main bearings might be shot too i never thought of that.

there is no blueish discoloration to the rod journals at all just white streakesh marks. So hopefully a ton of heat didnt get in there...
I have a machinest that i will be taking the engine too today and let you guys know.

I do agree with twicks that it might be easier to buy a whole new engine. If the crank is toast, thats another 300 ish dollars for a new crank, add that into what im already spending plus main studs and main bearings im looking at significantly more expensive than buying a slighly used block.

Im currently attending automotive tech school so i can do all of the machine work myself so labor isnt a problem i just need opinions and the tools to measure clearances.

 

[twicks69]

Well, with that said -- especially the part about the entire rod bearing being missing -- you are much better off purchasing a complete replacement engine.

If you want to learn how to do machinework and engine building, use your dead motor as a lab rat and practice turning a crank, and doing stuff like boring and honing a block, or align-honing the mains, etc.

As for the tools to measure your clearances, check with a local engine machinist and learn what they have to say about that.

 

[JaxTalonTSi]

toast, thats another 300 ish dollars for a new crank

Damn, where are you getting it from, ? The most I've payed for a good crank is $150. The least, $50.

 

[bluegs03]

Well heres an update i did some measurements with the trusty micrometer, the crank is toast and needs to be turned but a .10 undersize will do it, main and rod bearings have to be replaced of course, im getting a slightly used 1g rod from a reliable parts vendor in my area. I need to get the rods machined out to make sure the journal bearing will fit nicely in there.
Plus i need to get the block decked cleaned bored out .20 over and balance shafts removed. Oh yea and new .20 over pistons and rings!

so basically the whole engine is toast.... but! im going to do some calculations on how much replacing all of those parts would be and weight the pros and cons.

Ive read up on turning crankshafts and ive read that some people dont think it is such a good idea because the coating gets worn off of the crankshaft and it weakens it. What are your guys opinions on this?

Oh and thanks so much for your guy's help it is really nice to find a good forum with helpful members that dont bash ya... to hard !

 

[bluegs03]

Damn, where are you getting it from, ? The most I've payed for a good crank is $150. The least, $50.

are you talking about a used crank or a brand new one if so i would love to know where you got a brand new crank for 50$

 

[JaxTalonTSi]

are you talking about a used crank or a brand new one if so i would love to know where you got a brand new crank for 50$

Mitsubishi does not make NEW 6 bolt cranks anymore. And when they did, they were $800 and up. You can still buy a new crank from Eagle, but that is overkill, and just as expensive.

I was speaking of a good, used crank with no damage to the journals, just somthing that at most needed to be micropolished.

 

[twicks69]

My crank is a 10/10, and I have had no problems with it for the last 3 years in my race car. I did have it re-nitrided and cryotreated after being "butchered" by FFWD Connection. And it is a 7-bolt.

If it is ground down, I would reccomend re-treating it or cryotreating it at a minimum.

 

[JaxTalonTSi]

Twicks,

How much did the service cost you and where did you have it done? I work in the general aviation industry, and alot of the aviation mechanics send cranks out to get re-nitrided. They usualy have to get them cherry-red when they perform the work. The crank usualy has to be put on a jig and then tested for warpage afterwards.

 

[twicks69]

Twicks,

How much did the service cost you and where did you have it done? I work in the general aviation industry, and alot of the aviation mechanics send cranks out to get re-nitrided. They usualy have to get them cherry-red when they perform the work. The crank usualy has to be put on a jig and then tested for warpage afterwards.

I did it through Darren at FFWD Connection. I have no idea where he gets his stuff re-nitrided. FFWD Connection - Race Injuns That Will Freeze Your Brain

 

[My1GLaser]

IMHO I wouldn't even screw around with turning/nitriding a crank when a virgin 6-bolt can be had for ~ $150. Also, ARP mains are a waste of money IMO and you should get the mains line honed after installing. They aren't really a weak point in our motors esp at the HP level you are looking for. Pretty much the same thing with the rod bolts.

For pistons I would recommend Nippon Racing stock replacement pistons from Slowboy. I got the whole set for $150 + shipping (I did buy $500 in stuff from them at once though).

If you feel confident in building a motor and you appreciate paying attention to detail and the car isn't your DD then I say build it yourself. It is a great learning experience and a fuc_king blast if you have patience and mechanical ability.

Also, I would recommend getting a used set of 1G rods that are in good shape. They are easy to find and can support that HP. It will take any concern out of the equation. Not to make a pitch, but I have a set that I replaced with Manley H-beams in great condition. You are welcome to pm me if you are interested.

A used short block can be had for ~ $300-400. You would still need new pistons and a bore/hone.

 

[bluegs03]

The verdict is still out on the turning the crank, i left a message with one of the machinists in dallas who has worked on dsm's before and asked him if he has ever turned this crank before and his opinion on it. My thought process is that to turn it is only like $45, and it is JUST out of spec i mean like .0002 out of spec so only .0010 will need to be taken out (i think thats the right amount of 0's).
But say the worst happens and the crank cracks and breaks while driving it hard. Then I take it out replace the bearings again and buy the $150 crank, since you can remove it from the bottom of the engine its not a massive undertaking.

I dont know if ive said this before but if the part breaks oh well ill just replace it because i dont need this car to be reliable, it would be nice but half of the fun of having a "project" car is to work on it all the time and if there is nothing to work on then you are pretty bored...

I am getting a used rod to replace the warp one

Ill take your suggestion on the arp main's because i was on the fence about them anyway. What do you think about the rod bolts i think it would be best to not reuse those right? The arp ones are only like $45. The reason i say this is because i know the stock bolts and studs stretch and i want them to still stay together, plus these rod bolts have 200,000+ miles on them.

 

[My1GLaser]

But say the worst happens and the crank cracks and breaks while driving it hard. Then I take it out replace the bearings again and buy the $150 crank, since you can remove it from the bottom of the engine its not a massive undertaking.

Well that depends on how/were it actually breaks...it could wipe out the main caps which screws the whole block.

but half of the fun of having a "project" car is to work on it all the time and if there is nothing to work on then you are pretty bored...

Yup!

What do you think about the rod bolts i think it would be best to not reuse those right? The arp ones are only like $45. The reason i say this is because i know the stock bolts and studs stretch and i want them to still stay together, plus these rod bolts have 200,000+ miles on them.

Technically, most (or all) bolts stretch when you torque them. Also, the rods should be line honed if you switch to ARPs because they can torque the big end out of round. You could install new OEM rod bolts and not worry about the torque changing the shape of the big end. I am sure some people have used the ARP rod bolts and not had the rod checked w/o issues. But I tend to be overly paranoid about such things, so I just opted to buy new rods...

 

[bluegs03]

Hmmm now you've got me thinking, ill take into consideration what you said about the crank breaking. Im still gonna wait until i hear back from the machinist.

I am having the rods worked on im not sure of the exact terminology of the work that they are doing on the rods but it is suspossed to grind a tad bit of the end cap of the rod off to make sure that the rod's dont warp at the journal. I dont know if thats what your talking about or if its something different. Either way i asked my "professor" what he would do with the rods and he said just have this process done and it should make them in a good useable condition.

Long way of saying i am having the rods checked and worked on so the arp's should be ok.

BTW just out of curiosity where would you buy new oem rod bolts? I havent seen any for sale anywhere i have looked just arp's

 

[bluegs03]

Quick update!!!
i have disassembled the entire engine, got it all ready to be bored out decked and cleaned (its really dirty!) I have decided to have the crank ground .10 I did this because i had a long talk with the crankshaft machinist and we looked over the crankshaft. He assured me that at the power levels i was seeing and the type of driving i would be doing (autocross rally drag etc) that the crank would be fine. He has been machining cranks for 15 years and he has yet to have a cranked returned to him because the machining he did on it caused it to shatter under load. He did say he had a few cranks returned from lack of oil and the bearings shattered which caused the crank to wobble and destroy itself but not from the machining.

Im quite excited as i will be doing as much of the machining work as possible and all of the assembly. Theres nothing like learning how to assemble an engine on your own car! *gulp* But it should be a fun experience and i will have people to turn to if i need reassurance that im doing it right. I should be able to get some pictures up for you guys pretty shortly. Plus i wanna show off my destroyed piston!

 

[tommy260]

I am about to dive into a project almost exactly like yours. Im not positive, but I'm pretty sure I threw a rod bearing and plan on rebuilding the whole thing while Im attacking the bearings. Are those something that car be replaced from the bottom with the engine in? This will be my first dsm rebuild so I feel ya 100%. Ill be checking back to see your progress and ill try and keep ya updated with mine as well. Good luck!