Well, I'm back with proof. Running OEM Atmosphere BOV.

[forcefed86]

Well I was bashed and instantly had 100 people telling me I couldn't do it. Well I did, and it works just fine. Nothing crazy rich on the shifts and no poor idle or driveabilty issues.

Installed LC2 WB02. Went for a test run...

First run with the BOV setup OEM style. At 18lbs WOT I'm seeing around 9.5:1 AFR's. Lifting to shift (BOV active) AFR's jump to mid to high 12's. Then jump back up to 9.5:1.

Swapped in my brass check valve vented to atmosphere. PLugged open hole on intake tube. Same WOT AFR's same boost. At the shift AFR jumps up a bit less at 10.2-10.6, then drops back to mid 9's.

So there it is... do what U will with it. It's sure not washing down any cylinders running at 10:1. That is leaner than the factory map!

The factory AFR targets are as follows.

Also for what it's worth I've done the "dodge garage" MOD to the BOV. If anything this probably slows down the BOV, but thought I'd mention it.

Simple brass check valve installed. I've since painted everything black. But this pic shows the valve assy better.

 

[richardc475]

Run more than 30 psi with dsmap. It is a good system for people who don't plan on running more than the limit of a 3-bar sensor.

Upgrade your map sensor, I know people running 40 psi on DSmap.

 

[the_mork]

There are people running 7bar sensors too but as you increase your sensor range you decrease resolution and the car becomes less driveable. Then again if you need a 7bar map sensor you probably are only going to tune for wot and idling well enough for the car to stay running at the line but for those of people who like to kick ass and still go get groceries the limitations are unfortunate.

Dsm-onster, I thought I made it clear in my followup post but you are correct that is one of the major drawbacks of SD that I was mentioning. Tuning every time you get a new part also makes it harder to tell how much gain you get from the part and how much gain you get from changing your tune.

Also tuning SD from scratch is a whole different animal than tuning SD from the standpoint of having a functioning and happy MAF that you can log to get an idea of RPMVE and MAPVE. I chose to start from scratch because we were at a point where the 2g MAF was being silly with the evo8 ecu and none of its reading could be trusted to accurate to a sufficient degree.

 

[dsm-onster]

Why I like dsmlink. You can use the maf to get a good balpark guess on your VE curvature in the first place. And you can go back and forth between the two painlessly.

But in the end, the benefits you see from an upgrade come from airflow numbers not horsepower numbers (except for better fuel and/or better charge cooling). No matter what your tune is finally, if you gain more airflow, you now have more airflow to dial in and work with. . .

 

[the_mork]

But airflow numbers are also much harder to see with SD. There is no air count only a pressure and a motorVE number at any given time so the easiest way to start figuring out airflow is to guesstimate AFR x fuel flow and see about how much air it takes to do that.

Of course you can guesstimate off of the numbers that the ecu still reports based on what you would have had with a MAF (since the ecu still thinks it has one) but with some of us our SD tunes have no correlation or MAF tunes.

The but dyno is pretty much all I've got to go on these days.

 

[dsm-onster]

If your VE must go up to move your a/f back to where it was, they your volume airflow wen up that percent different (assuming this isn't a better fuel being used or a better charge cooling). . .

 

[the_mork]

Yup I understand that but I still don't get real numbers out of it which is really fine by me it just happens to be a limitation. This probably isn't the right thread to discuss it but all I ever see is discussions about the positive side of SD and nobody really talks about it fully in context.

For the record I'm not complaining either. I don't have any real need for airflow numbers with units and the tuning isn't that bad but nobody else ever mentions that sort of thing.

 

[enash99]

Congrats man. If it works for you, it works for you. There's a million little things that change from one car to the next. Be wary of those who make broad generalized statements.

Also, some people in this thread have absolutely no clue what they're talking about when they speak of a/f ratios. I mean, like wow, do some research before spreading your misinformation.

Tunerpro is a lot of fun once you get the hang of it. Here's a comparison of the modded a/f table I'm using (left) and the stock a/f table (right).

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

OH MY F'ING GOSH! so this is what my 1992 AWD TSI fuel map looks like? Freaking crap... and in this thread its said that STOCK A/F is 9.5 at WOT? HOLY WASHING CYCLINDERS DOWN.. Is this really true? This cant be. Theres no way its that RICH. Come on. I just can't believe the engineers that built this and designed this set it up to run at 9.5 A/F. When 11.1 is ideal. .

I really can't wait to tune this car myself. If that is true there is sooooo much power being left on the table stock. WOW im blown away.

I am going with the EVO8 ecu anyways so I dont have to waste all my money on DSMlink and run our crappy ECU anyways. Leaky caps and bad parts like those. With the EVO ECU we can use Enginuity and ECUflash to tune for Free! Hell with paying licensing fees. Go with Opensource!!

 

[untouchablecc]

Correct me if im wrong wisemen. But 2gs dont have the leaking cap issue and for 1gs you can have them fixed for cheap with updated caps so they never leak. Nice thing about link, ill never fry my ecu. Get a ecu flashed the wrong way an it will be the last time you flash that ecu, how much do those usually run.....?

 

[the_mork]

There is starting to be some evidence that 2g ecus are starting to leak as well as they age. The aging process for them seems to have been more graceful but as time goes it is taking its toll.

As for flashing an ecu I don't know about the H8 ecus but it is actually hard to brick an evo8 ecu these days and they cost about $100-$150. After that a cable costs about another $100.

 

[dsm-onster]

Yes, I heard the h8 2g ecus are reflashable over and over again (not a redundant statememnt ).

 

[TSI-GUY]

to the op , what do you want to prove /??/??? its known and its a fact for years that its not good to vent your BOV. what exactly do you need???// you want to do it on your car , do it but dont come later on an ask for help.

i ran my 92 talon tsi awd for a week with my bov rubber hose off and blocked off and i didnt find anything wrong with it but when it sits and idles for a few mins it will kinda jump up and down for a bit ten it will smooth itself out.. and also when i lift off gas and then step on it again i found that it spools faster.. and also i do have a auto not manual

 

[DSMORTIZ]

ok so after reading all this, is it recomended to VTA the stock 1gBOV even with the GM-MAF nd MAFT???

 

[cody4g63]

Why not just install a normal bov?

 

[Skippysnax]

I have a recirculating bov but I absolutely see a social flaw with everyone bashing on people running atmospheric bov's. I will even acknowledge that the cars run worse with an atmospheric bov. Here is my "social" issue with this. People who have aftermarket exhausts on their cars are essentially guilty of the exact same pleasures. For example we all know that an open exhaust is the best exhaust, however if somebody has a full 3" turbo back exhaust setup people praise them and say, "wow yeah I bet that sounds really good" and "well you can spend $200 on an ebay exhaust but it will sound like a ricer spend the extra and get a good sounding exhaust" Aren't we in the end sacrificing performance for sound? Isn't that the same as sacrificing bov performance for sound? nobody ever goes there. I think its just not socially acceptable in the die hard dsm guy to support atmospheric bov.

let the bickering begin!

 

[agentorange313]

I have a recirculating bov but I absolutely see a social flaw with everyone bashing on people running atmospheric bov's. I will even acknowledge that the cars run worse with an atmospheric bov. Here is my "social" issue with this. People who have aftermarket exhausts on their cars are essentially guilty of the exact same pleasures. For example we all know that an open exhaust is the best exhaust, however if somebody has a full 3" turbo back exhaust setup people praise them and say, "wow yeah I bet that sounds really good" and "well you can spend $200 on an ebay exhaust but it will sound like a ricer spend the extra and get a good sounding exhaust" Aren't we in the end sacrificing performance for sound? Isn't that the same as sacrificing bov performance for sound? nobody ever goes there. I think its just not socially acceptable in the die hard dsm guy to support atmospheric bov.

let the bickering begin!

This post probably doesn't belong in this forum, most likely in The Hang Out. I mean it dealing with a social problems. Also this forums last post was made before the new year, kinda old and beaten to death.

Your are going to find "die hard dsm guy" do not support vent to atmosphere because it is not how our cars are designed to run with the use of a MAS. These "die hard dsm guy" also run SD, a system for tuning that allows for vent to atmosphere, a lot of hardcore guys run this with ECMlink. Its not that its not socially acceptable for them to support an atmospheric BOV, it is that in most situations the VTO is used with a MAS which we all know causes problems. I think this sums it up:

dsm-onster "We will always steer users from modifications that don't yield consistant repeatable results. If the stock fuel pump at 20psi works for some but not others, we would tell you to upgrade your fuel pump when you're pusing it that hard. If you get a wally fuel pump upgrade and some can get away with no FPR overrun but others do, we will recommend getting an AFPR. If with that turbo upgrade to see that level of performance you have a choice between a ChinaG and a 16G, we weill recommend the 16G because of the random results with a ChinaG."

As far as the exhaust things goes, I wouldn't think of getting an ebay because its cheaper even if it sounded the same. There's a thing call Quality Control that I know existed from exhaust systems from our supporting vendors. So paying that extra 200-250 is worth it in my book, never will I have to track down a ebay seller (I know some of our vendors have ebay stores, not referring to them at all).

All in all, I do agree with you, just let them be, vent or recirc. Its your damn car, if you want to run it that way then so be it, just don't be ignorant when you come back with questions and problems because your current set up is not working (the "you" in the last sentence is not referring to you as a person).

was that too much bickering!?

 

[the_mork]

Let this thread die. No one cares anymore.

 

[Calan]

Let this thread die. No one cares anymore.

No one cared when it was alive.

 

[Ludachris]

I have a recirculating bov but I absolutely see a social flaw with everyone bashing on people running atmospheric bov's. I will even acknowledge that the cars run worse with an atmospheric bov. Here is my "social" issue with this. People who have aftermarket exhausts on their cars are essentially guilty of the exact same pleasures. For example we all know that an open exhaust is the best exhaust, however if somebody has a full 3" turbo back exhaust setup people praise them and say, "wow yeah I bet that sounds really good" and "well you can spend $200 on an ebay exhaust but it will sound like a ricer spend the extra and get a good sounding exhaust" Aren't we in the end sacrificing performance for sound? Isn't that the same as sacrificing bov performance for sound? nobody ever goes there. I think its just not socially acceptable in the die hard dsm guy to support atmospheric bov.

let the bickering begin!

No, let's not allow the bickering to continue. It's a philosophical difference, that's all. This site was built around performance. Not cool swooshy sounds and extreme negative cambered wheels on cars that won't see the track. We know we have people who want to look the part, or sound the part, but that doesn't mean it's in the spirit of what this site is all about.

If someone wants to try and sit here and tell us that venting a BOV to the atmosphere (with a MAF) will not have any negative effects, I say BS. Maybe it won't result in catastrophic failure, but it's absolutely not the best way to get your car to perform at its highest level. If you're just looking for a way to get attention, cool. But there's really no point in arguing. The point most of us are trying to make is this - it can be done, it's not optimal for performance, many will run into problems trying it, and the point of this site is to learn about how to get optimal performance out of the car first and foremost.

And on that note, let's just all agree to disagree. Our goals are different and we will do different things to our cars because of that.

 

[black_gst]

Luda has spoken! now please lock this thread!

 

[gen2allday]

Atmostphere is only cool not useful. Send that air back to reduce lag imo.

 

[bsbllfit7]

simply put get a map sensor and get rid of the maf, then you can vent without issue.

and the reduced lag from recircing is nothing, when i talked to the guys at english racing they said with speed density it makes 0 difference if you are vented or recirculated outside of the sound. He said the only way it could spool the turbo ever so slightly faster is that if the discharged air hits the exact right spot on the compressor wheel. Just the presence of air wont matter. Get what you wanna out of that but thats what a renowned shop is saying about the subject, and everyone knows everything that they do is awesome.

 

[dsm-onster]

The stock 1g pipe puts the recirculation entrance at that right spot. For a 16g and a stock tranny that has shift-to points in the 5k rpm range, does this matter for 1/4 mile runs? not at all. For a larger turbo and a road course does this matter? maybe.

 

[forcefed86]

Still rocking the one-way plumbing check valve myself, although i have converted to a JAKAL SD setup.

On a side note. I think crushing the valves greatly restricts the volume of air coming out of the valve. I'm sure my valve does as well. (although not as bad as crushing IMO) I have noticed what sounds like a bit of compressor flutter. I'm going to add another OEM BOV soon. I believe the 2.5" piping large FMIC and 30+psi is overloading the OEM valve volume wise.


Can't believe people are still responding to this.

 

[dsm-onster]

It doesn't overload my non crushed dodge garage modded one. I vent with speed density and only with speed density. The dodge garage mod works well for my 30psi speed densitysemi-sheepish setup vented to atmosphere. . . But that mod DOES lower the flow of the valve as the valve opens up slower and not to as much lift; just not enough for my setup to have any issues.

The best thing is to rig up something like the dejon 1g valve leak stop kit if you want it to hold for higher power setups which could benefit from SD. For lower power setups, converting to sd for properly venting to atmosphere with no sideeffects mentioned in my and other experiences is alot of work just for the noise . In the long run you'll be happier with a recirculated dodge garage modded valve if you're going to stay with the maf.

 

[forcefed86]

It doesn't overload my non crushed dodge garage modded one. I vent with speed density and only with speed density. The dodge garage mod works well for my 30psi speed densitysemi-sheepish setup vented to atmosphere. . . But that mod DOES lower the flow of the valve as the valve opens up slower and not to as much lift; just not enough for my setup to have any issues.

The best thing is to rig up something like the dejon 1g valve leak stop kit if you want it to hold for higher power setups which could benefit from SD. For lower power setups, converting to sd for properly venting to atmosphere with no sideeffects mentioned in my and other experiences is alot of work just for the noise . In the long run you'll be happier with a recirculated dodge garage modded valve if you're going to stay with the maf.

I actually am running the dodge garage mod on the BOV I run. I have another oem valve so adding another is free. Just the time it takes me to weld on a flange. Actually “Mr. Peepers” was telling me he just used a std adjustable valve and restricted the amount of air going to the quick release port while incorporating the dodge garage mod at the same time. Said it worked great once dialed in. I think you would have to dial it in with a leak tester and shop air to make sure it wasn’t opening though.