Well, I'm back with proof. Running OEM Atmosphere BOV.

[forcefed86]

Well I was bashed and instantly had 100 people telling me I couldn't do it. Well I did, and it works just fine. Nothing crazy rich on the shifts and no poor idle or driveabilty issues.

Installed LC2 WB02. Went for a test run...

First run with the BOV setup OEM style. At 18lbs WOT I'm seeing around 9.5:1 AFR's. Lifting to shift (BOV active) AFR's jump to mid to high 12's. Then jump back up to 9.5:1.

Swapped in my brass check valve vented to atmosphere. PLugged open hole on intake tube. Same WOT AFR's same boost. At the shift AFR jumps up a bit less at 10.2-10.6, then drops back to mid 9's.

So there it is... do what U will with it. It's sure not washing down any cylinders running at 10:1. That is leaner than the factory map!

The factory AFR targets are as follows.

Also for what it's worth I've done the "dodge garage" MOD to the BOV. If anything this probably slows down the BOV, but thought I'd mention it.

Simple brass check valve installed. I've since painted everything black. But this pic shows the valve assy better.

 

[dsm-onster]

But you're still wrong. Way to drag on a moot point . It worked with your car because you lifted completely off the throttle activateing the fuel cutting idle switch. No one drives like that. And even if it does work for you, there's too many proven bad experiences to take just your word for it. You can't beat statistics. You can't beat statistics. You can't beat statistics. You CAN beat your head on the wall in attempt to disprove them. But you can't beat statistics.

Everyone else . . . chances are, of you vent and run drawthrough you will have crap happen. You can definately try to do it. Go a head. see if your car is different. Or you can spend your time more worthwhile and di things like remove the maf or something.

 

[forcefed86]

But you're still wrong. Way to drag on a moot point . It worked with your car because you lifted completely off the throttle activateing the fuel cutting idle switch. No one drives like that. And even if it does work for you, there's too many proven bad experiences to take just your word for it. You can't beat statistics. You can't beat statistics. You can't beat statistics. You CAN beat your head on the wall in attempt to disprove them. But you can't beat statistics.

Everyone else . . . chances are, of you vent and run drawthrough you will have crap happen. You can definately try to do it. Go a head. see if your car is different. Or you can spend your time more worthwhile and di things like remove the maf or something.

How do you know how I drove the car?

And your right, nobody drives like that, including me. I do take my foot completely off the throttle while cruising around town. In boost I don't. And during my tests I didn't.

I'm not claiming to have found some sort of miracle cure. I'm saying I have the same results as installing an aftermarket BOV for around $8.

My two cars may have been some sort of acception. So far 90% of these bad experiences have been people who didn't have a check valve or aftermarket BOV. My little modification will cure those problems.

The other 10% may be the acception as well. But if everyone hounds on the idea enough I guess we'll never know. Personally I don't have an issue. That's my statistic.

 

[joegamma1]

hi, i'm new here, been looking for a month or two. i want my bov vented to atmosphere too, call me a ricer, whatever, but i have searched it and have not done it, because it does seem to have an ill effect on drivability, but i do have a maft that i will install for a couple reasons incliuding vta.
I think it's great that the op has found a way to do it, props for figuring out, but if a newb isnt smart enough to do his/her research to get the same outcome then too bad for them, they should use the search button as i did.
funny though, people will preach against being a "ricer" and wanting to vta, but some of the preachers have/ has vented to atmosphere. I think it is just something people like to hear from a turbo car much like the hot rodders blippin the throttle.
by the way when i installed my cold air intake, my car wants to die sometimes at stoplights, like what is described when you vent to atmosphere, could the air be backing out the filter since there is less restriction than the original airbox?

 

[the_mork]

More likely you have a pre-turbo air leak, do a boost leak test first then go ahead and attempt to figure out if you have a leak between the MAF and the turbo. Are you still using the stock bcs?

 

[joegamma1]

boost leak done, yes on the bcs, i'll recheck the pre turbo connections, thanks

 

[the_mork]

If you're using a stock bcs does the new intake have a port on it to run the bcs line to like the stock intake had? If not then you are venting a certain amount of air every time the bcs opens to reduce wastegate reference pressure.

You didn't happen to jack with the MAF while you were in there did you? This is a common problem that we see when people from some car groups believe that they can simply rip out the honeycombs on a stock MAF and expect things to still work right, on these cars that wont be the case.

 

[richardc475]

All in all your still showing richer conditions than normal inbetween shifts.

You have not figured anything out. Do it properly or don't do it at all.

If you want to vent for cheap pick up a used GM MAF/MAF-t setup. then run the maf in Blow through. This way you can vent, and be running a better setup.

Or, switch to speed density which is a much better system than any maf setup. Can be done for real cheap in a 1g. Just need a couple sensors, an eprom, and an ostich.

 

[the_mork]

Or, switch to speed density which is a much better system than any maf setup. Can be done for real cheap in a 1g. Just need a couple sensors, an eprom, and an ostich.

I'm not trying to call you out or anything but take it from someone who runs SD that it is a mixed bag. It is really really nice most of the time but sometimes you just wish you had a factory car again. Also 2gs can get in on SD for even less than 1gs with only a MAP sensor, AIT sensor, evo8 ecu, and a cable. Then again 1gs can do the same with with an evo8 ecu but it takes quite a bit more work.

 

[joegamma1]

If you're using a stock bcs does the new intake have a port on it to run the bcs line to like the stock intake had? If not then you are venting a certain amount of air every time the bcs opens to reduce wastegate reference pressure.

You didn't happen to jack with the MAF while you were in there did you? This is a common problem that we see when people from some car groups believe that they can simply rip out the honeycombs on a stock MAF and expect things to still work right, on these cars that wont be the case.

yes, bcs vaccum line is on the stock nipple location on the new intake tube, and no the stock mas is still in stock form, no honeycomb removal.

 

[richardc475]

I'm not trying to call you out or anything but take it from someone who runs SD that it is a mixed bag. It is really really nice most of the time but sometimes you just wish you had a factory car again. Also 2gs can get in on SD for even less than 1gs with only a MAP sensor, AIT sensor, evo8 ecu, and a cable. Then again 1gs can do the same with with an evo8 ecu but it takes quite a bit more work.

Everyone locally who runs sd says it is way better in every way than a maf. Alot of People are running ds-map and I have not heard of one complaint.

I am waiting on my fuel setup to get here and then I will be swapping my Laser over using Jackal.

What issues do you have with speed density?

 

[the_mork]

Actually my problems probably don't come directly from SD, my car has just passed the point of having the same sort of driveability on the street that I like. My car is somewhat scary in the rain and I certainly can no longer simply hand the keys to someone who is an average driver but that really isn't the fault of my SD conversion. What I don't like about SD comes from having to retune for the very large differences in environmental factors that I deal with in Wisconsin (40 degree temp swings in a day and excessive humidity changes) and how anal I am about predictability with my car. I think if I were just a normal driver I would love it but more than half the time I don't even have the radio on so that I can listen to the engine because I don't entirely trust a non-factory setup despite the fact that I've proven the reliability of my setup to myself.

The mixed bag issue comes in where I realize how nice it is not to have liftoff knock from blowing an excessive amount of air back into the intake and causing MAF freakouts but also having to deal with the excessive amounts of tuning involved with an SD setup. Once it is fully tuned it should be great (and mine does run wonderfully under most conditions) but it was a huge PITA to deal with as compared to tuning with an MAF.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that while SD is great you should be careful when listening to the hype, there is no significant power difference on a stock framed turbo and even though many driveability concerns are addressed most people wouldn't be able to tell the difference between a car with an MAF vs an SD car. It simply isn't the wonder mod that some people make it out to be.

 

[richardc475]

Ok, I understand what your saying and I guess I worded it wrong, I wouldn't run SD on a stock car or nearly stock car either.(until fuel is upgraded). If you want check out the post I made here, http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/wel...ewish-here-but-not-new-dsm.html#post152052008 , those are both of my current DSM's that I will be running SD on. The 1g will be run with DSmap, and the 2g either link/aem ems/ or Megasquirt.

 

[spyderturbo007]

As I have said, I ran my other car like this for 3 years and almost 30k. No issues. I sure don't see you proving that it does cause any damage, minor or otherwise. So what makes your theories better than mine? At least I went to the trouble of gathering a few data points. What have you done?

I've tried it, as explained I explained in a previous post and my car ran like crap.

As long as your on the same bandwagon as everyone else... why don't you all just go drive it off the end of the earth? It's flat right? That's what everyone else is saying.

I think you are a couple hundred years late on this one, but good try.

Yup I did "jack" with the air flow mass. If I'm not seeing excessive richness for and it didn't slow my car down more than a few hundredths(if at all.) Who cares?

Not me.

Your concern isn't needed here. It will not harm the car. I've proved this. If you care to do some sort of other testing to prove me wrong then by all means do it. Otherwise stop making claims you can't back up.

Yes you did. Those 3 data points convinced me.

 

[dsm-onster]

you need to stop. Your car didn't run so rich that it stalled. So what?

When all the other newbs do, this they will understand that it's a hit/miss issue. Your statistic is nothing more than a drop in the bucket. Stalling has nothing to do with not having a check valve. And everything to do with the flow out the bypass valve that your checkvalve is allowing in the first place.

 

[snakeyes711]

I'm sorry, I just HAD too.

 

[dsm-onster]

Stalling between shifts can be a real kick in the balls, too.

 

[habitatguy187]

Will someone please shut this thread down?

 

[snakeyes711]

Stalling between shifts can be a real kick in the balls, too.

thats funny right there I don't care who you are. Sry, I had too, every time I entered the newbie forum it was there . You like that huh? I couldn't find one, so I had to make that one with paint shop.

 

[Calan]

I can't resist tossing in my experience before this gets shut down (as it should).

I've tried venting and not venting several times, for the sole purpose of comparing the two. Hands down, a VTA BOV causes my car to run like ass. And I'm running a GM MAF in blow-through. The negative affect on spool-up during shifts is plenty of proof for me.

And BTW, black smoke out the tail pipe and ECMLink logs showing rich AFR spikes during shifts is also plenty of proof on a stock MAS; although it isn't necessary if you understand how the ECU and BOV work. I think my 11 yr-old son could pretty quickly figure that out with a little study.

But to the OP...I do respect your effort and attempting to push the envelope. But I think you should have left it a couple pages ago at "It works for me, but YMMV".

 

[snakeyes711]

Stalling between shifts can be a real kick in the balls, too.

Everytime I read that post I just gotta laugh.

 

[redyute1]

The Mork said:

The mixed bag issue comes in where I realize how nice it is not to have liftoff knock from blowing an excessive amount of air back into the intake and causing MAF freakouts but also having to deal with the excessive amounts of tuning involved with an SD setup. Once it is fully tuned it should be great (and mine does run wonderfully under most conditions) but it was a huge PITA to deal with as compared to tuning with an MAF.

dont know what set up you use but i have been on ds-map for 9 months now and i haven't had to tune and tune and tune,it was 30 degrees this morning and she started up fine and run fine on a tune i did during summer 80 degree weather.For all i care i do vent and saw no difference in the spool or any performance glitches,this whole venting makes you run rich is just overated for all i care.

I'm not trying to call you out or anything but take it from someone who runs SD that it is a mixed bag. It is really really nice most of the time but sometimes you just wish you had a factory car again. Also 2gs can get in on SD for even less than 1gs with only a MAP sensor, AIT sensor, evo8 ecu, and a cable. Then again 1gs can do the same with with an evo8 ecu but it takes quite a bit more work.

map sensor yes,iat yes,cable home made not purchased,evo 8 ecu,how much will you pay for one,shit where can i get one,ostrich 175.00 boom speed density on my 1g,under 300 bucks,dont see where the 2g sd setup could come cheaper than a that

 

[donniekak]

Everyone locally who runs sd says it is way better in every way than a maf. Alot of People are running ds-map and I have not heard of one complaint.

I am waiting on my fuel setup to get here and then I will be swapping my Laser over using Jackal.

What issues do you have with speed density?

Run more than 30 psi with dsmap. It is a good system for people who don't plan on running more than the limit of a 3-bar sensor. As far as this whole thread, why. Venting a bov is a useless mod. It improves performance as much as stickers, and neon lights, IF, you can do it on your car without it stalling between shifts.

 

[the_mork]

The cable and evo8 ecu cost me $215, I got my map sensor and IAT for less than $75. Ceddy also now has SD running on the 2gb ecu so now 2g cars don't even need a new ecu.

The only way that it is cheaper for 1g cars is if you already have an eprom ecu and then it is comparable.

The original setup is the tuning that I'm complaining about. Weather hasn't done terrible things to my tune but I do notice a difference during warmup. I'll admit that at least some of this may have to do with how capable I was at tuning for SD when I first started. Part of it is an issue with the evo8 SD mod that has been fixed since I stored my car. Almost all of it has been taken care of now but it was a hassle. The differences were also never big, and I think most people probably wouldn't even notice the majority of issues that I had. I do have to make changes to my tune every time I add a part that changes VE, with an MAF I wouldn't have to do this. Obviously I think the pains of having SD are worth it but I just want to caution people away from seeing this as something more than it is.

For all i care i do vent and saw no difference in the spool or any performance glitches,this whole venting makes you run rich is just overated for all i care.

I can't believe that you wouldn't know this but since you run SD there is no relationship between what you see with AFRs and what someone with an MAF sees. If you don't feel a difference in spool then you either aren't paying close enough attention or your turbo setup spools quickly that the difference isn't noticeable. Your driving style has something to do with it as well. There is no doubt that recirculating back into the intake will increase spool speed when spooling again immediately post blowoff, how much of a difference there is depends on setup and driving conditions.

 

[untouchablecc]

Your posting a venting forum on a site that is 100 percent dedicated to the perfection of DSMs. What kind of answer did you expect. Dsmers are all about doing things right thats why there are endless pages of threads an write ups. If this were a Honda forum i could see how half assing is acceptable but its not. With that said, there are also endless pages of threads about venting all of which come down to one conclusion.

Theres a right way to run your car and the wrong way.

Venting has no gains and has a few setbacks.

Recirculated on the other hand has a nice little bump of air for the turbo an keeps the fuel trims an mas air happy.

So if you wanna run your car vented thats fantastic run if vented till your heart bursts with joy just dont try and push it on to other people that its okay to do an wont have an side affects. You cant tell me any different because i ran open bov since day one with my car and the idle blows its not smooth at all between shifts and it makes your car run rich, rich enough that you can smell it in the exhaust, and it also carbons up the exhaust and 02 housings after enough use. I switched to gm mas and love it. I like running open blow off valve and i will continue to do so because i think its awesome and its so much better doing it the right way. MY 2

 

[dsm-onster]

The Mork said:

The mixed bag issue comes in where I realize how nice it is not to have liftoff knock from blowing an excessive amount of air back into the intake and causing MAF freakouts but also having to deal with the excessive amounts of tuning involved with an SD setup. Once it is fully tuned it should be great (and mine does run wonderfully under most conditions) but it was a huge PITA to deal with as compared to tuning with an MAF.

dont know what set up you use but i have been on ds-map for 9 months now and i haven't had to tune and tune and tune,it was 30 degrees this morning and she started up fine and run fine on a tune i did during summer 80 degree weather.For all i care i do vent and saw no difference in the spool or any performance glitches,this whole venting makes you run rich is just overated for all i care.



map sensor yes,iat yes,cable home made not purchased,evo 8 ecu,how much will you pay for one,shit where can i get one,ostrich 175.00 boom speed density on my 1g,under 300 bucks,dont see where the 2g sd setup could come cheaper than a that

I think he's talking about having to completely retune again when you upgrade cams or even just altering your intake. A smim would require a complete retune as well. and so would upgrading the turbine housing, turbine wheel, or even the exhaust manifold.

BTW speed density is not just sub $300. You need an eprom ecu.