Valve Springs, Drop in?

[GSLENK]

After doing valve stem seals, I am considering doing valve springs. The oem springs have about 40k on them, and I want to rev this FP RED out to see where the power tops off. I am also running high boost, 33psi, potentially up to 38psi if there are gains to be had.

I am leaning towards the Kiggly steel street or the regular high pressure springs (not the race only version). This is partly due to the High rev/boost/cam. I will be throwing in some kelford or gsc 272s eventually.

Kiggly's website seems to indicate that the steel street springs are drop in. I spent some time Googling and found that the special micrometer costs $50-100 to measure the height. Is this worth the effort/expense or can I just drop the kigglys in?

 

[BogusSVO]

All depends on how accurate you want to be and how equal you want all your spring pressures.

I check them on all my head builds.

 

[GSLENK]

Would it be a mistake to skip measuring the height and shimming on a 40k virgin head?

 

[BogusSVO]

Your head, your build, your money.

personally I prefer to know than guess.

 

[GSLENK]

So all I need to do it right is the special micrometer and some shims? Any suggestions on a mic that will fit?

 

[bling5tatus]

I'm in the same boat right now. I'm either going to have to pay the machine shop to do the valve installed height for me or I will have to figure it out on my own. Definitely interested in seeing the answer here.

I don't think there are any articles on checking valve installed height.

 

[bastarddsm]

Goto harbor freight buy a dial indicator, and a set of calipers. Use your imagination. Measure the tip heights, measure the tip to upper spring seat.

 

[GSLENK]

I was thinking of that, the problem is being accurate and precise on the measurements. You would have to make more assumptions about your skills and consistency for that method. I found this, I am 99% sure it will fit. The OD is 1.25" OEM springs are ~1.1" OD. only real concern with clearance is the springs between cylinders 2 & 3 on the intake side. There is not much room around them because of some barrier in the head.

http://www.compperformancegroupstor...tore_Code=CC&Product_Code=4928&Category_Code=

 

[1990dsmkid]

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Watch Jafros video on valve and spring install

 

[bastarddsm]

Let us know how it fits. I might have to get one.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

The problem with spring micrometers is that you still have to read them. When they are positioned down into the head, they are almost impossible to read.

I used the Goodson tool listed below. This will allow you to attach a dial indicator. I then used a 2 inch standard to zero the gauge and take the valve tip installed height measurement.

http://www.goodson.com/Valve-Stem-Height-Gauge-Measuring-Bodies/

The only issue with the above method is that the dial gauge does not actually measure anything, it only tells you the difference from where you zeroed it. Since a dial gauge is not accurate at either end of its travel, this may cause you to be slightly off.

I ordered a depth micrometer and just got it today. I checked a few this afternoon and they are within .002” so not too bad so far. I will be making a video demonstrating this process once I am done with the work but that does you no good at the moment.

As for just dropping them in, I would advise against it. The seat pressure and benefits of the new springs will not matter if they are not at the proper installed height.

 

[GSLENK]

I am still planning for the future. My car is driving on the oem springs right now and for a while. At first, using 3 tools seemed like a PITA, but I think I will give it a shot with what I got. I can turn out a holder like the goodson one, grab a dial indicator from HF, already have calipers and calibration/reference sticks in the 1 and 2 inch flavor. Why not just use the calipers as a depth micrometer? It has one built in...

When they are positioned down into the head, they are almost impossible to read.

I assume this statement comes from experience
But the spring height mic seemed so reliable and easy
I guess now I want to know if anyone has ever done it that way...

 

[BoostedBeaver]

My comment is not from actually using the device but from looking at measurements and realizing the issues. I had this same conversation with Bogus a few months ago. I found the specs of three spring micrometers that would fit the spring seat. They are produced by PAC, Proform and Compcams. They would actually fit over the valve and properly rest on the seat, so technically they would work.

The down side is that you must install the retainer and keepers on the valve and then fit two fingers in the remaining space to turn the mic. Now look at how tall or short the micrometer is. It will be recessed into the head when installed with a retainer over the top of it. Surely some will be easier to read but there will be quite a few that will make this difficult.

This issue with using the depth micrometer on the calipers to measure the tip install height is that you may tilt the keeper giving you a false measurement. It can be done this way, just not something I recommend. Everyone has their opinion on this and some will say otherwise.

 

[BogusSVO]

I have been using the valve tip height mic for 15 or more years. They work great and I would be lost with out it on import heads, and some domestics too.

Before that I used the vernier calipers and keeping it straight is an issue.

Robert laid out the issues with the valve spring mic.

The good thing on both tip height and spring install is getting close.

Tip hight has a range of .030 from low to high

The big thing on springs is keeping them +/- .003-.005 of your target installed height, this will balance the springs with in a few Lbs of one another. Depending on the in/lb rate of the spring.

 

[GSLENK]

Ok, the process looks tedious but I can see it being less evil than the on-stem micrometer. One thing: at what crank angle would the pistons all be the same height? And at this height, would it prevent a valve from falling into the cylinder? I know that TDC will prevent 2 cylinders worth of valves from falling in, but I would rather not guess and check .

Ideally I would like to remove the cams, and then measure each valve height applying air pressure only to the cylinder that I am measuring this should help keep the process less tedious. Also, what ID should I make the Dial-Holder? I threw out all of my stem seals so I don't know how large the ID should be. Also about how high does a valve stem tip sit above the head (inside surface that the locater/shims etc sit on top of)?

Lastly, measuring retainer to tip height with a caliper, will these tilt or are they rigid enough? Could I measure tip to top of retainer and add the retainer thickness or will the keepers be in the way? (I do not remember what was higher up the retainer or the keepers)

Thanks for the info and helping me avoid throwing $70+ away.

 

[bastarddsm]

90* ATDC would put them all about middle of the bore. If you are doing it on the car, I would put the cyinder your working on at BDC. Then take a small socket and a hammer and give each retainer a light tap to pop it loose from the keepers. Then bring it to TDC and use compressed air to presureize the cylinder. Change your springs and seals.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

The process is not really involved, it just takes a little time because you have 3 measurements to make at each valve, 16 valves to measure so 48 measurements all together followed by a little math.

My measuring body has an OD of .900 an ID of .770 and an overall length of 2.840.

As for measuring the retainer to the tip height, I simply purchased a 10 dollar pair of calipers from Harbor Freight and modified them to work. I marked and cut one measuring side to create a set of offset measuring faces. This allowed me to quickly and easily get this measurement. Be sure to check their accuracy using a standard but mine actually checkout out perfect at one inch.

As for how to do it, I would just do one cylinder at a time and follow the directions bastarddsm posted above to avoid making contact with the piston.

 

[GSLENK]

A lot of good replies, here's another take that seems viable, Thoughts?

It appears that this guy is not worried about the retainer tilting.

About the middle of this page (its pretty far down)

http://www.ecmtuning.com/forums/showthread.php?t=46274&page=4

Look for these pics (those without link access, but I think all of you are on it anyway). I have a lathe so turning something like this should not be too bad.

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It kind of gave me the idea which may or may not make this simple (IE remove some user error)... Perhaps I can turn a "tube" to an exact (measured) height, give it a nice and flat top surface that will accommodate the spring resting spot of the retainer, and grab a set of shims or feeler gauges (shims cut into a C or U shape...) that will slide in/out for measurement without tilting the retainer.

Seem like an idea worth investing the time/materials in?

 

[BogusSVO]

With your idea, how will you get the retainer down far enough to pop the valve locks in and out?

 

[GSLENK]

With your idea, how will you get the retainer down far enough to pop the valve locks in and out?

Good point. Lathe the tube part to about .5" too short. make another dowel with a slit a little larger than the OD of the valve stem to make up for this distance. It will sit on top of the original dowel. Then proceed as originally described.

 

[BoostedBeaver]

The second idea seems viable but the above measuring option with the 1in piece just seems much easier/simpler. You are trying to remove user error by adding more known distance however, you are adding in the use of feeler gauges for the remaining distance. I trust feelers for no or no go type purposes to check rod thrust clearance and deck flatness.

If I where to choose one of these three methods on this page, it would be the one pictured. While it may have a little user error figured in due to tilting the calipers and or retainer, its the one I one be more comfortable performing, less machining and less moving parts.

 

[BogusSVO]

A slight bit of tilt is not going to kill the spring set. even with shims you are just going to be close, +/- .005 will change the seat press a couple pounds, depending on the in/lb rate of the spring.