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titanium valves

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silicosys4

Banned Member
427
7
Jan 13, 2011
Port Angeles, Washington
I bought some used Nascar titanium valves off ebay for $20 for a set of 8. They are going to be a christmas present for a friend of mine, and for shelf-candy they are pretty trick.

They are small block chevy valves, and are damn light for big-ass valves.
As I'm looking at them, I'm comparing the size of these valves to the new SS valves for the 4g I have sitting around waiting to go in....
The ti valves are much bigger than the dsm valves...I got to thinking....could the ti valves be machined into 4g valves? There certainly seems to be enough excess material.

I researched a little bit, and found that the ti valves don't last anywhere as long as SS valves, but are much lighter, and when softer beryllium/copper seats are used can last up to 500 miles at avg. 8000rpm, before needing to be replaced. That could be a lot of 1/4 mile passes.

The beryllium copper seats on a SBC are about $250...

So at this point, out of curiousity,
Has anyone machined titanium enough to know if it is possible to cut down small block chevy valves into 4g63 valves? I saw quotes online from people paying $20 a valve or so to have used titanium valves cut down to fit their head....of course, those were small blocks, and machining was probably not that crazy to get them to fit...

Also, does anyone know of a machine shop that would be able to do beryllium seats without trying to rape a guy? Seems like if it's $250 or so for a small block set up it couldn't be much more for an inline-4 setup.

Anyways, if it's under $600 or so to have valves cut, and beryllium seats installed, it might be worth it if someone is already having the head work done, and wants to run oh I don't know....beehives and titanium valves :)
could be worth it.


P.S. the titanium valves were $1000 new from del ray...$22.50 off ebay for 8 used TITANIUM exhaust valves (56 grams apiece)

http://www.ebay.com/itm/7MM-Del-Wes...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item23158fbe78
 
Yes they can be cut down. But shops that have the equipment that is needed if going to be in shops few and far between.

Not only will they have to cut down the head, but the stem and then cut the keeper groove.

I am not sure if the valve stems are treated or not for wear resistance.

At a min I would figure about 1 hour per valve to have it cut down at a shop rate of anywhere from $50 to $100 or more per hour

Now as far as seat work, are beryllium seats even avaiable in the size needed for the 4g? or would those need to be made too?

How much harder are the beryllium seats when compaired to a high nickle allow seat or a sintered metal seat used in a 4g head?

I doubt this can be done for $600 or less or it would have been done by now. By Bushur or Magnus or one of the other "BIG" boys playing with the 4g

Now if you had a price mark of $2000-$4000 to play with for R&D then you might get there.

You are talking about alot of custom work and one off parts.
 
Nice, the first post is the one guy I was hoping to hear from. Thanks Bogus. Yea, I started wondering once I saw the only 4g63 I could find running beryllium copper seats was the greek evo shooting for 2000 hp. Certainly at a level above and beyond even the most fanatical dsm'r. Well, I suppose I was hoping someone like Engnbldr who already knows 4g63 valve specs could do something if someone sent them some titanium valves...Thanks for the response!
 
Engnbldr buys valves and resales them.

I made a few calls to see what the cost would be.
 
Engnbldr buys valves and resales them.

I did not know that...I assumed he was turning them himself, and that is why the cost is so low...do you know from who?
That's very strange to me...who makes performance stainless steel valves then sells them anonymously to small distributors? I would have assumed anyone making SS valves would have wanted their name associated with the valve since its an aftermarket, upgraded performance part. I've only ever heard them referred to as "engnbldr" valves, and from the info I've found, are just as good as any "name brand" ss valve....manley, supertech, etc..
Thanks!
 
He has some made over sea, and he buys some factory over runs.

Sorry, I talk to him from time to time, but he dosnt let me be in the know that much...
 
Oh....That kind of sucks, I have a set of those....so that means 7 of them could be chinese stainless steel...3 could be manley...and 6 could be supertech? Or whatever combination I could have gotten? Hmm.....probably not a big deal, and for literally half of "name brand" valves and with no negative reviews that I could find I'll have to take the chance that I'm the first loser, LOL
Damn I hope they are all identical then.....I've been thinking I need a good digital micrometer anyways...
 
No.. I know beacuse I have spoke to him about the 4g valves, he has those made to his specs, they are all 21-4N stainless steel one piece valves.

You have no worries there.
 
Well, Thanks for your answers, Bogus...since we are on the subject, and you seem to have more knowledge about engnbldrs valves than anyone else I've talked to...
The question has been danced around but never really addressed by someone with enough knowledge to give more than a "worked for me" answer....What do you think about them, quality-wise? Are they comparable to other stainless steel valves that have a name-brand associated with them? Any concerns?
 
I'd be curious as to how they flow in comparison to a ferrea, i"ve designed valves on flow benches before and had them cut to my specs. if thats what he did then i'm betting they're nice. I'm not much on material, but i'd also like to know what temp that material is good for as an exhaust valve.
 
I have installed all sorts of the Engnbldr valves....Todate, I do not know of one of engnbldr valve failing that I have installed.

40+ sets in the 4g63 heads, mainly turbo but a few NA, one guy had me build 3 heads for a "Stinger" class dirt track car. I have no issues of these valves going 8500 RPM

I do not have any idea for the SBC, from stock grandma goin to church builds ( beacuse I could get them cheaper than OE replacements) some have been set up for .550-.600 lift cams with insane seat pressures.

Small block Fords.. same thing, lots of them

FE Big block Fords, yes they get the Engnbldr valves too, about 3-4 390s have them
Even a set in a 427 side oiler in an ORGINAL Shelby Cobra is running them!
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As far as temp ratings.. I do not know, but next time I order and talk to him, Ill ask.
 
I just Searched 21-4N stanless and found this, Also alot of the valve companys use this in there performance valves.

Useful info about 214 N stainless steel
214 N is an austenitic precipitation hardening chrome-maganese-nickel steel with higher additions of Nickel and Nitrogen for increased elevated temperature mechanical properties and better structural stability.
It has double the Nickel content compared to competitors (Ni 4%), which offers greater elevated temperature strength and hardness. 214 N is generally used for medium to heavy duty exhaust valves and heavy duty inlet valves in both diesel and petrol engines.
The maximum constant operating temperature is around 750°C while it has a spiking capability of ± 800°C. 214 N has very good resistance to oxidation and hot corrosion by lead oxide and other combustion products encountered in medium to heavy duty engines under normal operating conditions.

750 ºC = 1382 ºF



Physical Properties: Mechanical Properties at room temp:
Density: 7.7 g/cm^3
Modulus of Elasticity: 211 N/mm^2
Thermal Conductivity: 18 W/m.K
Magnetism: Non-Magnetism.
* Can be slightly magnetic after cold working
Yield strength: >590N/mm^2
Tensile strength: 980-1200 N/mm^2
Elongation: >8%
Reduction in area: >10%
Hardness: >30HRC




The chemical composition of the steel:
21 4N (EV8)
C: 0.48 / 0.58
Mn: 8.00 / 10.00
P: 0.05 max
S: 0.035 max
Si: 0.25 max
Cr: 20.00 / 23.00
Ni: 3.25 / 4.50
N: 0.38 / 0.55
Fe: BASE
 
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Good info bogus! most of that mean nothing to me, but the temp numbers look good. have you had them on a bench to compare with other valve avalible? I've been a fan of the flow caracteristics of ferrea stuff, both in my 2.3f, and my 4g stuff. i use them in all my circle track engine as well.. i guess not all, some get del-west stuff to
 
turbo2.3 no I have not had the ferrea side by side with the engnbldr valves. Ill try to arrange that one day soon.

As far as a Ti 4g63 valve goes, I can have them made, $165 per valves so $2640 per set of 16

So who wants a set or two?? LOL
 
LOL, does ti transfer heat better, or is its largest avantage just weight.. if its just weight, then i'm not sure there is a need for the 4g. for instance here are some weight numbers to compare with.

Stock 4G INT: 54.9 grams EXT: 53.2 grams

1mm over ferrea 4g INT: 53.6 grams EXT: 52.3 grams

ferrea 2.3 ford 1.89/1.60 INT: 104.9 grams EXT: 96.8 grams

there are valve spring combos for the 4g that will allow 11k rpm with stock weight valves, i'd bet that if you wanted to turn more than 10K Ti would help valve train life greatly. Obviously the biggest reason high rpm, 2 valve engines, use ti valves is so they can turn upwards of 10k, for somtimes hours on end.
 
Since we got to posting weights....

Stock 4G63 spring retainer 13.5g
BC Ti Retainer 8.6g

EngnBldr +1mm Valves 4G63
Intake 55.0g
Exhaust 52.1g

So it looks that the Engnbldr Intake is 1.4g heavier than the ferrea, but .1g heavier than the stock 4g

Now looking at retainer weights, the Ti retainer is 36.3% lighter than the stock steel, so using this as a best guess factor, the Ti valves should weigh appox

Intake 54.9g-36.3%=34.97g
Exhaust 53.2g-36.3%= 33.32g

So you are looking at about a 20g weight savings per valve.

That is a good bit, but I doubt enough to off set the cost, IMHO, for most people.

EngnBldr Ford 2.3 1.890/1.590
Intake 103.3g
Exhaust 98.3g

Here again the weights are close
 
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