1G Timing marks not lining up

[2ndGen]

Ok so I have everything off that I need to replace my timing belt, however the timing marks are not lining up correctly. I had the belt replaced by a mechanic before hand and the car does run good and sounds great and starts up quick. And YES I did turn the engine up to six times to get the marks aligned, however the camshaft marks line up but not the bottom marks (crank oil and balance shaft). I have turned the engine over and over in vain. When the bottom marks line up the camshaft marks do not line up, and visa versa. What should I do? Ill upload some photos of the marks when the camshaft marks are aligned. Should I have the top camshaft marks aligned perfectly and just re align the bottom ones? will it be ok if i take off the belt with the top marks aligned and the bottom ones off and just fix the bottom marks? Or just keep everything exactly the way it is with the new belt?

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[BogusSVO]

Align the crank marks and get a pic of the cam gear marks.

But it sounds like you will have to drop the belt and start over.

 

[97SPYDER210]

It looks like you are one tooth off on the bottom end. Have you driven the car? You should have little power. When under load. Before you reset the timing belt pull number one spark plug and put a long screw driver in there and turn the engine by hand you should not have any trave when the cams line up. If you still have up ward trave then your off a tooth

 

[WES_393]

You are one tooth off on the bottom end and one tooth off on each cam. The cam timing marks need to be the closest point between cams.

 

[2ndGen]

yeah Im only getting 25 mpg on the freeway, and it does have a little loss of power but no back firing or anything like that. I just put all my tools away so i cant post up anymore pics but when I align the bottom marks the cam marks are off by one tooth. the left cam mark is up one tooth and the right cam is where it should be. So its visa versa, cam gears are aligned bottom marks are un-aligned, and when bottom marks are aligned (crank mark oil mart b-belt) the cam gear marks are un aligned by one tooth. So should I try to align the marks the best i can and re do it completely?

 

[rlacasse1]

It looks like he lined up the marks perfectly and put the belt on. Which is right, kind of. But as soon as you turn the crank it will pull out the slack on the non-tensioner side of the belt. And you will end up with the crank advanced a tooth or two. That is exactly what you have going on there.

Re-time it, but this time when you do it, line the crank mark up correctly and put the belt on the crank pulley. I usually wedge a socket between the belt and housing beneath it to keep the belt from skipping. Then get up to the intake cam, make sure the belt is on the back idler pulley of course, and when you put it on the cam, pull the belt as tight as you can and advance the cam a tooth. Then do the same for the exhaust. Then when you spin the engine over, they should all line up perfectly.

 

[pauleyman]

If it didn't line up after six turns then it wasn't right and you shouldn't have driven it. All the marks are relative to the crank. If the crank is on it's mark and others aren't after six turns you start over until they are. There is no other way.

 

[2ndGen]

ok I'm just trying to understand a bit more, when i get the belt to the intake cam do I advance it one tooth up or down? I cant just align all the marks with the belt? Im just trying to understand the method your using. in the pictures i have the cam marks are aligned, so are you saying that the marks have to be un-marked on the cams and the bottom marks have to be aligned so when i turn the engine they will all of a sudden be aligned? how exactly are the cam gear marks supposed to be aligned before you turn the engine then??

 

[rlacasse1]

ok I'm just trying to understand a bit more, when i get the belt to the intake cam do I advance it one tooth up or down? I cant just align all the marks with the belt? Im just trying to understand the method your using. in the pictures i have the cam marks are aligned, so are you saying that the marks have to be un-marked on the cams and the bottom marks have to be aligned so when i turn the engine they will all of a sudden be aligned? how exactly are the cam gear marks supposed to be aligned before you turn the engine then??

Line up the crank marks. Then you would basically turn the cams one tooth clockwise before you put the belt on. That will get rid of the slack.

And when you first get it all buttoned up, the cams will not line up perfectly. But as soon as you rotate it six times (only 2 necessary if we're just looking at the cams) they will line up perfectly.

Obviously, if you're hulk strong this may be unnecessary. But I always find it helpful when timing a car.

 

[pauleyman]

THe problem you likely had is you had them lined up while there was still slack on the belt. The idle side will be taut when you rotate the motor. This is why you rotate it six times. It removes the slack and it takes six turns for all 5 marks to come around again. Bottom line is once the crank is line up if other marks aren't you start over. Thing is at that point if you're off one tooth on any sprocket you can just make a mark. Move the belt a tooth or whatever you need, retension and check it again. It's not hard, just a little tedious your first few times.

 

[Twinturbo120]

yeah Im only getting 25 mpg on the freeway, and it does have a little loss of power but no back firing or anything like that. I just put all my tools away so i cant post up anymore pics but when I align the bottom marks the cam marks are off by one tooth. the left cam mark is up one tooth and the right cam is where it should be. So its visa versa, cam gears are aligned bottom marks are un-aligned, and when bottom marks are aligned (crank mark oil mart b-belt) the cam gear marks are un aligned by one tooth. So should I try to align the marks the best i can and re do it completely?

When I did my timing belt I aligned the bottom ones and then the top but noticed my exhaust would go back one tooth. So what I did was put it forward half a tooth and then put the timing belt over it. So then it would line up perfectly, hope this helps.

 

[rlacasse1]

Look at the attached picture.

You are getting slack in the belt where I made it red. That is what is throwing your timing off.

Advancing the cams takes care of it. Cause as soon as you start to turn the crank it will turn a tooth before the cams start to move due to the slack.

 

[2ndGen]

sweet guys. thanks for all the help. Im going to start on this thing first thing tomorrow morning

 

[WES_393]

The cam marks being off is not a result of belt slack. If that were the case the cams would both be advanced or retarded one tooth. As is, the exhaust is advanced and the intake is retarded. The cam marks were timed wrong and need to be redone. Plain and simple.

Correct timing marks

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Incorrect timing marks (like the OP has them)

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Incorrect timing marks

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[miguelmcv]

First, align the crank with the balance shaft, once you have that align, then take a look at the cam marks, you will see that they don't align, you don't have the timing right.

Like BogusSVO stated, align the crank and balance shaft, and take a pic of the cam marks so we can guide you from there.

 

[rlacasse1]

The cam marks being off is not a result of belt slack. If that were the case the cams would both be advanced or retarded one tooth. As is, the exhaust is advanced and the intake is retarded. The cam marks were timed wrong and need to be redone. Plain and simple.

Correct timing marks

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Incorrect timing marks (like the OP has them)

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Incorrect timing marks

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If you look at the pictures of what's going on with this guys car, you can see that the most likely cause was slack in the belt when it was timed. I'd bet my life on it. That's why when the cam gears are dead on the crank is a tooth or two past it's mark. That's what happens as soon as you turn the crank when there is slack in the belt.

And if he were to just line up the crank mark before he takes the belt off, he would probably see that his crank, balance shaft, and possibly the oil pump would all line up and the cams would be retarded a tooth or two.

This guys problem is caused by the slack that was in the belt when it was timed. And of course it's a complete do-over.

 

[WES_393]

^ True. But my point is the cam marks are never going to be aligned. He even said himself:

when I align the bottom marks the cam marks are off by one tooth. the left cam mark is up one tooth and the right cam is where it should be.

They might "look" aligned, but they aren't. So regardless, I think we can all agree the OP has to redo the entire timing job, cam gears and all.

 

[2ndGen]

ok guys im going to head outside to start turning my engine so you can see what my cam gears are doing. I was thinking about this all night and i think I'm still going to need some guidance after I align the bottom marks. I didnt notice this problem until I took everything off since I wasnt the first one to do the timing belt. Ill post up some pics in a few of what the cam marks look like when the bottom end is on mark, but what i can say now is when the bottom marks are on the left cam is up one tooth and the right cam is level.

ok guys so the first two pics are of the cam marks when the crank marks are relatively close ( i know the oil pump sprocket is off but i rotated this thing 20 times already and this is always the end result), the third pic are the cam marks (still off but SOMEWHAT close to being horizontal) when the crank marks are off just a bit (from the first crank mark pic i posted). please please help me on what to do. i don't have enough money for that mechanic again and the last time he did this job he charged me 424$, and obviously it wasn't done right but just enough for my car to run.

should i align the bottom marks, reset the autotensioner with the tool, take the belt off and rotate the left cam clockwise so it lines up correctly with the right cam mark and put the belt back on? HOW is it possible that my car still runs good and doesn't have bent valves with the cam marks all messed up like this?? Ive been driving it like this since i got it back from the mechanics, over 9 months ago!

 

[rlacasse1]

The fact of the matter is your car will run with it out of timing. The closer it is, the better it is. So if that exhaust cam were to be off further it would start running worse.

It looks to me that all you really need to do is move the exhaust cam one tooth clockwise and it will be good to go.

 

[2ndGen]

SHOOT I FORGOT ONE MORE THING. When I finally get everything back on and all the marks are aligned how they should be do I have to do anything to the cam angle sensor? like do I have to re-time the car using the cam sensor and my timing light? or do I just have to start the car after everything is on and pray it will run again?

SHOOT I FORGOT ONE MORE THING. When I finally get everything back on and all the marks are aligned how they should be do I have to do anything to the cam angle sensor? like do I have to re-time the car using the cam sensor and my timing light? or do I just have to start the car after everything is on and pray it will run again?

sorry for bugging guys. I just called Mitsubishi and I wanted to add this to the post in case another newbie might need this information. They said after installing the timing belt making sure all the marks line up and putting all your stuff back on you do not need to mess with the cam angles sensor to time it (unless you want to do that, up to you). It should all be good to go.

 

[rlacasse1]

It should be good. Unless someone dicked with it, I wouldn't worry about it.

In hind sight, it's kind of dumb for me to say it should be good as I have no clue who dicked with the car before you. But if it's running good, I would just re-time it and I wouldn't place a huge priority on busting out a timing light.

 

[2ndGen]

Yeah IM the last one to mess with the timing and I had it a 5 degrees btdc. I called that mechanic and sent him the pics and he said there is no way he can determine he did it and that maybe i took the belt off. Last time im going to that place. Thanks guys, ill update if anything comes up

 

[pauleyman]

Your hydraulic tensioner is WAY off too. When you retension the belt do not set it like that. The last guy to set the tension did not know what he is doing. You're way over thinking this job also. The exhaust cam is one tooth off. Move it that one tooth, check the marks, set the tension, that's it.

 

[steve]

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ok guys so the first two pics are of the cam marks when the crank marks are relatively close (I know the oil pump sprocket is off but i rotated this thing 20 times already and this is always the end result), the third pic are the cam marks (still off but SOMEWHAT close to being horizontal) !

Your hydraulic tensioner is WAY off too.

Right! Looking at that second picture, you can clearly see that the auto-tensioner is too loose and the oil pump sprocket/rear balance shaft is mistimed.

Find something to act as the grenade pin on the auto-tensioner and using the threaded rod tool or the two pin tensioner pulley put pressure on the auto-tensioner and reinstall the pin. Then loosen the tensioner pulley and remove the belt.

rlacasse1 has provided some good advice on how to line everything back up into correct timing and reinstall the belt. I have a slightly different approach.

Here's the trick, each time you go to put the belt on a sprocket (except for the first) rotate the sprocket your installing slightly backward to get the belt on the teeth and then rotate it forward to make sure it won't go past the timing mark without moving everything else. If it does go past you have too much slack in the belt and you need to put the belt on that sprocket again until you get it right.

Start at the exhaust cam, clip the belt to the exhaust sprocket with big binder clips and line up the two cam sprockets using the method and then work your way clockwise. If you do this at each sprocket when you get to adjusting the tensioner pulley nothing will be able to move.

Do not take the pin out of the auto-tensioner until you sure the marks are perfect, the tensioner pulley is pre-loaded correctly and you have turned the engine over 6 times, waited 15 mins and verified the tensioner pulley is pre-loaded correctly.

How do you verified the tensioner pulley is pre-loaded correctly? The pin will move easily when the pressure from the belt equals the pressure from the spring inside and the height of the tensioner rod with the pin installed is right on the lower end of the specification. So if it moves freely the tension is correct at the correct rod extension.

Then once the marks all line up, the tension is correct, the tensioner pulley nut is torqued down you can pull the pin and put the covers on.

 

[2ndGen]

sorry to respond to an old post guys, just wanted to say thanks for all your help. And you were right I was thinking of it way too much. My car is running way better and I'm getting more mpg. The only thing that took me a long time was setting the tension and the torque for the timing pulley bolt. Everything is ok now and yes that mechanic didn't know what he was doing. I think he just put the auto tensioner back in and didn't even bother measuring the distance.