tien pillow ball mounts

[greengoblin]

So then if koni and gc aren't worth it what is?I want a track suspension money is not an issue. Moderators and wisemen please help.

If you want to a really nice setup and cash is not a problem then talk to Robi spec. He can build you a set of revalved K&W and when I picked mine up he even had a set of upper hats.

Kevin

 

[eclipsh]

I stopped reading part way through this but I've got this setup on my car right now. I've been running it up front for about a year, DD, with no trouble. I designed my own bushings to work with a cheap set of aluminum hats. They slip inside the bearing of the Tein unit. Here's the bushing I designed:

You must be logged in to view this image or video.

The bushing fits in such that the top side goes into the pillow ball and the bottom side slips into the spring hat. Obviously the shaft of the shock goes through the middle. I'm not sure which car my Teins were originally for but this shape could easily be modified to fit whatever bearing and hat you get. You can see in my notes that I increased the height of the shoulder up top and shortened it on the bottom by .1 inches. I don't have any binding issues or slop. I just took the whole thing apart and there are no obvious signs of wear or slipping around, just a little surface rust on the steel.

Also, all those units are in inches

 

[romeen]

These bushings are essentially for the same purpose, correct? There are some for a 12mm shock rod at bottom of page.

Rod End & Shock Reducer Bushings : Koni, Ohlins, Moton, Penske, Hypercoils, Your Racing Shocks Shop!

 

[chasedardis]

Im working out if my garage so I can't really fab anything but I will look into talking to some local suspension shop for any fab. I will look into the Dg hats.

 

[eclipsh]

Romeen, my design does a bit more because it keeps the spring hat centered and provides a seat for it to ride on.

EDIT: They fit down inside of the center opening of this hat:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Conical-Upp...Parts_Accessories&vxp=mtr&hash=item588f202a89

I think this is the exact same set I've been running. My buddy, Rick, tested them in a multi-ton press and they held up to the force just fine so I'm confident they are tough enough for our use. I've also been running around on them with no trouble.

 

[romeen]

Romeen, my design does a bit more because it keeps the spring hat centered and provides a seat for it to ride on.

EDIT: They fit down inside of the center opening of this hat:

Conical Upper Hats to use with 2.5" ID Coilover Springs | eBay

I think this is the exact same set I've been running. My buddy, Rick, tested them in a multi-ton press and they held up to the force just fine so I'm confident they are tough enough for our use. I've also been running around on them with no trouble.

Ah OK, I think I understand. I'm using the Koni threaded sleeve kit with my Koni Sports so I didn't have to deal with that. Unfortunately, it's relatively spendy for a sleeve kit. With shipping, I paid $255 for the set (upper and lower perches, threaded sleeves x 4). Perfect fit right out of the box is nice though.

There are also these "universal" pillow ball mounts. I have no idea regarding the quality of these. But it looks like maybe it could be made to work on a 2G (sans camber adjustment).

Univ. Strut Mount [N44067] - $100.00 : Koni, Ohlins, Moton, Penske, Hypercoils, Your Racing Shocks Shop!

 

[chasedardis]

What length hypercoil do I need for spring and will rre mounts work with those and konis.

If I get koni hypercoil and Dg hats. What fans will I have to do to the mounts. What else will I need I.e. rubber spacer/bushing, bolts ext.

 

[jtmcinder]

7" is good, but hard to find. 6" is fine in the front. You can run 6" in the rear, too, if you have a tender or helper spring, too. Otherwise, the rears need to be 7" or 8".

With that said, with decent rates, you really want a helper or tender in the rear. It's not hard to tripod a DSM at corner-entry. You don't need them in the front unless you have so much grip and power that you can lift the inside front, which I doubt.

 

[snowborder714]

If I get koni hypercoil and Dg hats. What fans will I have to do to the mounts. What else will I need I.e. rubber spacer/bushing, bolts ext.

Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis

It's not hard to tripod a DSM at corner-entry.

Yup, see my profile picture.

 

[ACM]

I didn't see this called out specifically, so I will state it now.

Tein pillowball mounts cost a BUNCH of compression travel, they are like an upside down top hat, from memory close on 1" lost compression travel.

RRE's original pillow ball mounts - the set I have are from around 2002-ish - are flat on the bottom with a ~0.5" bump on the top to accommodate the spherical bearing. This is the same design ShockTek and DG employed, where compression travel is increased over stock.

The last set of RRE mounts I saw are "upside down", insofar as the spherical bearing "bump" is actually on the underside - Scott, if you could confirm this for me please, since neither memory nor mental works so well any more, this could simply be a hallucination or manufactured memory

I don't think the new RRE design will actually hurt compression travel, but that will depend on the tyre OD being used - the ultimate compression travel limiter is when the tyre smacks the top of the inner fender, so long as that is still possible then all the possible compression is still available. Since I don't have the new style I can't measure this, but I am baffled as to why the design would be changed.

 

[jtmcinder]

RRE's original pillow ball mounts - the set I have are from around 2002-ish - are flat on the bottom with a ~0.5" bump on the top to accommodate the spherical bearing.

Yep. Combined with the flat hats I got from Pegasus and the stand-offs shaved to perfection, nothing would get you more travel than the original RRE plates.

Note that another (tiny) advantage of 2.25" springs is you can shave a tiny bit more from the stand-offs.

 

[bmoha7321]

subscribed

 

[knochgoon24]

I'm running 8" springs and helpers on my Koni/DG setup. I do have the extra grooves cut on the shock bodies. I love how cheap used 2.25"x8" Hyperco springs can be picked up for. I got my last set of 200# springs (winter set) for $20/spring + $15 shipping. They arrived looking barely used.

 

[chasedardis]

i am new to suspension can you fill me in on what a helper is?

Thanks for the build your own koni setup. Its a great article I feel intimidated by the process of putting it together and don't know how much it will cost. I have about 3 to 4k to spend from tax return but I also need sway bars, strut bars (m all control arms,bushings,bearings and ball joints done) dsm link speed density and injectors. So im trying to stay in that price range.

 

[snowborder714]

Helper springs are to keep the main spring from getting unseated (losing contact at either end) during full extension, as well as to keep the spring from binding on anything.

The DG setup will all depend on what prices you can get for the machined parts. If you don't know someone who can do them and have to have a company make them, a single run will probably be a bit more pricey. I would guess it'd cost you around $2k for the setup (a bit less if you can get machining costs down).

With all that other stuff, it might be close to $4k, if including the DG setup. Just make sure to prioritize (i.e. strut bars should be at the bottom of the list).

 

[FIBA M - EC17PSE]

Ok i hope im reading this right! But ive seen the teins advertise the pillow ball mounds WITH camber adjustment! I remember seeing the monoflex system with them as this is what im going to eventually get! At least this us what ive read! Sorry if uts wrong but GARAGE GT.com is where i was getting mine from as its the cheapest! And i read on many places thats its adjustable on the camber

 

[jtmcinder]

With regard to costs, the shocks, sleeves (with flat hats), springs, helpers, and dividers will run about $400 a corner for the Koni/Koni/HyperCo 2.25" set-up, plus the small cost of cutting a new groove in the shock body. So that's about $1600 so far; a bit less if you omit the helpers and dividers in the front.

As to vendors advertising camber adjustment for 2Gs via plates ... they are pinheads. It's a frequent error, but that doesn't stop them for being pinheads.

With regard to spring length, you have to take the rate into account. Yes, you can run 6" springs, but only if they are a relatively high rate. Otherwise they will bind. Probably best to just get 7" or 8". Yes, you are getting close to the limit where buckling becomes an issue, but I never saw any evidence of this problem, assuming a coaxial hat.

 

[snowborder714]

Jtoby, what's a divider?

Another thing to keep in mind is planned spring rate vs. what a Koni shock is meant to handle. If you plan on running some high spring rates (600+ in front and 300+ in rear), you might need to get the shocks rebuilt sooner than planned since they are not built to handle those rates from the factory.

 

[jtmcinder]

"Divider" is just HyperCo-ish for the separator between the main spring and the helper spring. A well-designed divider is more important some people seem to think because if the helper ever resettles in a crooked manner, you can get nasty buckling, especially with an 8" rear spring.

As to what Konis can handle, I'd say that you can go as high as 800/425 without revalving, but probably shouldn't. And HyperCo doesn't make a 425 in 2.25" anyway, so stop at 375 or 400 in the rear, both of which are OTS in 2.25" x 7".

 

[snowborder714]

Hmm...I don't currently have a divider on my setup. I guess it's something I should look into then?

You should pick one number on spring rates and stick to it in regards to maxing out the Konis I remembered and tried to quote (although, I failed) a post where you said the rear maxes out between 350 and 400. But I guess 425 isn't too much higher.

 

[jtmcinder]

In a PM conversation, I raised another possibility that I might as well make public. The issue is the ride on the way to and from events. With Konis (both because of the digressive bump valving and the suspension travel), you can just about do whatever you want in the front and the ride won't suffer (much). The problems with the ride quality come from the rear. You want to run 400+ springs, but that really does transmit a lot of road imperfections to your body. So what can we do?

The option I suggested was to create a progressive rear set-up. Instead of using a flat, zero-rate, true helper spring, use a stack of two 4" main springs. One would be the 400-450 that you want from the middle of the corner onwards. The other would be about half to two-thirds of that. The idea is to have the softer spring be about 1/2" to 1" from being completely bound. Thus, it still has a little bit of compression available for those little bumps that make the ride so awful on, e.g., 425s. But as soon as the rear suspension is being compressed by weight transfer (i.e., as soon as you are back on the loud pedal to exit the corner), the outer rear compresses the soft spring completely and the rate is raised to the whole 400-450.

This would require some math and probably some trial and error to get right, but the theory (which isn't mine; it's in a variety of texts and is why a lot of quality standard-style springs are progressive, like the OE springs in the rear on my Evo) says that it will get you the best of everything. If people would like to discuss this more, I'd be game. It's something I never tried, but wanted to.

 

[jtmcinder]

You should pick one number on spring rates and stick to it in regards to maxing out the Konis I remembered and tried to quote (although, I failed) a post where you said the rear maxes out between 350 and 400. But I guess 425 isn't too much higher.

It was True Choice that told me to stop between 350 and 400 if I didn't revalve. I don't listen to anyone (as should be obvious by now) and went ahead and got the 425s for the final set-up. I didn't blow them and they could still damp the rebound sufficiently, so I've revised my opinion. YMMV, of course, plus I'm not the best driver, but Gary Milligan liked how my car was set up, if I may drop a name shamelessly.

As to dividers: I didn't have a good one, either. But I understand (now) why they're important. The threads on the exposed part of the rear sleeves were a tad chewed up. If you're seeing any evidence of this, do something ASAP to keep the main spring straight and centered.

 

[chasedardis]

first question is was searching hypercoils website and can not find 2.5 in helper springs? second question as to this being my first suspension build would i be able to use koni with hypercoil 2.5 springs and 2.5 helpers (permiting i can find them) with rre mounts? What else would i need to complete this? Im in the process of talking to Mike w from rre about getting these made for me and posible organizing a dsmtuner group buy. P.S. my main objective is that i would like to be abl to just bolt it all together without going to a shop for modifications and fabrication.

 

[ACM]

Helper springs can be ordered from Ground Control, Pegasus, Racer Parts Wholesale, Speedway, and probably 20 more sites I'm sure. You may be running into a terminology problem when searching - they are often referred to as keeper springs, which is technically more accurate given the function, or as tender springs - where that term comes from I have no idea.

GC also flog very swish spring separator collars, or whatever you want to call them.

Ground Control Suspension Systems - 2.5" Springs
Sprint & Midget Coil-Over Springs - Speedway Motors, America's Oldest Speed Shop - page 2
https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/group.asp?GroupID=SPRINGS
- Helper springs and spring dividers + hydraulic spring perch - how slick is that...

Etc, etc, etc.

 

[jtmcinder]

Here's how I remember it: a helper springs "helps" to keep things lined up - it makes it so you don't need a helper when lower the car back down after changing the wheels; a tender springs makes the landing after a full droop jump softer - it's makes the car easier on your "tender" bits.

Keeper is synonymous with helper.

Tender Springs vs. Helper Springs

Is a hydraulic load-leveler really useful on a truly coaxial coilover? I know that they can also help prevent buckling, but a 6" or 7" spring on a coaxial coilover isn't at much risk for buckling, is it? The rule of thumb is when the free length is four times the ID.