tien pillow ball mounts

[chasedardis]

will i have any problems getting the rre mounts to fit on the ground control coilovers (permitting i can get rre to make me them). Since the cars main purpose is auto cross and road racing what spring rate should i choose. i was thinking a 375lb or 400lb in the rear because its fwd and maybe 575lb to 600lb in the front.

 

[jtmcinder]

If you tell RRE that you have Konis (or whatever shocks you have, but they ought to be Konis), then they'll send you stand-offs that will fit, so that's all taken care of. The issue is the hats. RRE didn't have any, so I got mine from Pegasus, but the hole was a bit too small and I had to open it up. Then I had to shorten the lower stand-off to maximize travel. In other words, even if they make you some plates, there's a little more work to do.

 

[LandoAWD]

In other words, even if they make you some plates, there's a little more work to do.

This is why I'm still on factory uppers. :/

 

[chasedardis]

stand off and hats are pretty new term to me could you help me put a definition on them so i have a better understanding. Is the stand of the bushing at the ends of the springs and are hats just the upper mount plate. Thanks for the help im a newbie to suspension and just want to get all my facts right so i know what im talking about. With the fabrications to the pegasus hats be able to be done in my garage i have a drill press so i can drill the mount hole for the koni's (which i have decided to go with for this budget/build). thanks again foryour info and time.

 

[snowborder714]

You can download/view the tech drawings (in PDF format) from here for examples of the upper hat (called upper mount plate) and the standoffs.
Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis

As for spring rates, a good goal is to have the front rate double the rear. So you could either go with a 600/300 (or 350) combination or a 700/350 (or 400) combination. One of those should be a good start for you. If you plan on running wider tires (265+), you'll want to go with a minimum of 700 in the front most likely.

 

[jtmcinder]

First, read what Brian linked to:

You can download/view the tech drawings (in PDF format) from here for examples of the upper hat (called upper mount plate) and the standoffs.
Autocross.dsm.org - Build Your Own Konis

Now I'll try to fill in some more blanks. And I'll try to define terms as I go. But let's also be clear that there are two main ways to make a pillowball-with-coaxial-hat set-up. The way that I did it used flat spring hats from Pegasus. By being flat, we are leaving room for the top of the shock to go as high as possible before hitting anything. You want the suspension travel to be limited by the upper A-arm hitting the inside of the fender and not something else; that's how you keep maximum travel which is hugely important on a 2G. (Then you use a bumpstop to prevent the arm from actually hitting the fender, as that would be seriously nasty.)

Where spacers come in is this: the shock's shaft will tilt as the suspension moves and/or as you steer (which is why we are using pillowballs and coaxial hats in the first place), which might cause the hat to hit the bottom of the plate if it's too close. So you use a spacer to move the hat down off the spherical bearing in the upper plate. (Note: "pillowball" just means an upper plate with a spherical bearing in it for the shock's shaft.) You space it down only as far as you need to, again in order to maintain full travel. The spacer is a tube, really, and needs to be exactly correct in both inside and outside diameter. The inside needs to match the shaft of the shock; the outside needs to match the rotating part of the bearing. In truth, the upper end of the tubular spacer often has a lip, so that part of it goes up inside the bearing, while the shoulder of the spacer matches the exposed part of the bearing exactly.

The other approach doesn't have a spacer below the bearing. Instead, the hat is conical and, effectively, has the spacer built in. Here's an example: Skunk2 Racing Pro Series Full Coilover Suspension: Pro-C (Competition Use), Pro-S (Street/Mild Track Use) When done right, a conical hat is argued to be better. What "right" means is that it doesn't reduce shock travel; the shock's top can go up inside the cone for full travel such that, even with a bumpstop up inside there, as well, what is limiting travel is the upper A-arm hitting the inside of the fender, as opposed to contact somewhere in the coilover unit.

 

[chasedardis]

I found a full k3 variant coilover set up for 2,050 shipped. Would this be a good option for the price?

 

[greengoblin]

I found a full k3 variant coilover set up for 2,050 shipped. Would this be a good option for the price?

It's not a bad price but you will still want to build upper hats since the K&W do not come with coaxial upper hats. Then if you change spring rates revalving them would be ideal too. Atleast if you want the very best setup you can have short of a set of uber highend units. IMO

Kevin

 

[jtmcinder]

I've never seen a plot for a KW V3 for a DSM, but those for Evo Xs are wild. At full soft, the compression damping is tri-gressive: just about nothing, then a rise, then flat again. Like a digressive, but shifted to the right. Would, in theory (and by some reports), ride better than the Bilsteins. If that's true for the shocks for DSMs, I'd definitely try them.

 

[chasedardis]

so i think im gonna get 4 koni shocks, 2.5 id hypercoil 400 lbs at 7 rate for rear and 600lbs 7 rate front, helper springs,helper spring adapter, rtm racing mounts, do i still need the 25 mm upper spring hat and spring adapter if i go this route.

 

[jtmcinder]

Yes. I see nothing on RTM's site to suggest that they include hats. Instead, I see rather hilarious comments such as "similar to the units that Far North Racing used with great success in their rally cars." As if Dennis ever rallied his car(s).

One thing to ask them before buying: when installed, does the "lump" on the RTM plate point up or down? It should point up, but I worry that they intend it to point down.

 

[greengoblin]

The pictures on the web site clearly show the lump would have to point up. There is no way they would intend for the load to only be supported on a snap ring. They look to be exact or very, very close copies of the DG units. Not that there are many ways to makes these. I would run them.

Kevin

 

[jtmcinder]

While I'm less inclined to give people the benefit of the doubt, I guess I agree, especially since they look exactly like the RRE plates.

 

[greengoblin]

Also since you put the hardware into them, you can orient them the correct way with the lump up.

Kevin

 

[chasedardis]

Thanks for are the help ill let you know how it works. Im waiting for my tax return then im getting it all. I am still talking to rre about their mounts.

 

[kickasskid2087]

The RRE plates state they are for 2.5" springs. Does this matter? Or could they be ran with the 2.25" hypercoils.

Also, the RTM plates seem to be rather pricey. Seems like you could make plates for well under that price.

 

[snowborder714]

I believe you could get a 2.5" to 2.25" adapter for the springs.

 

[jtmcinder]

RRE actually has plates available? That's great news.

As to 2.25" vs 2.5" springs, my memory is that the bottom of the plate is completely flat, so either would work. I think that they are just warning you that you need to run flat-ended (race-style) springs, instead of open-ended (OE-style) springs. But that is worth double-checking.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I don't see any indication in this thread that the plates are available.
Can someone confirm this?

 

[jtmcinder]

You can't prove a negative, but I'd still wager my first-born that they don't have any in stock. (She's been driving me nuts lately, anyway, so I really can't lose.)

 

[snowborder714]

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/newbie-forum/423531-coilovers-choose-3.html#post152860093

Not available at the moment.

 

[chasedardis]

Does anyone know if there is a size difference when trying to put tien pilowball uppermounts on koni yellows? i could have swore i read it somewhere but can not find it now.

 

[snowborder714]

Did you try the first page of this thread?

 

[jtmcinder]

Post #9 in this thread.

 

[chasedardis]

Sorry for missing that, so technically if i an get .5 mm spacer for the koni it will fit the tien pillowball mounts?