T25 hit the crapper... now, EVO 3 16G or 50 trim???

[run-4-cover]

I agree with you, but genius above was telling him to not get a 14b because he would run into tuning issues!?!?! the bottom line is; if he has money to get the 50trim now, get it....if not, put another t25 on there and follow the "normal" upgrade path then.

 

[run-4-cover]

Look at my mod list. That should be enough for you.



He just needs something because his T25 took a shit. Do the supporting mods first until you're ready for a turbo.

your mod list means nothing to me....just because I strap a rocket to my lawnchair, doesn't mean it can fly ...but I'll give you benefit of doubt.

see this..."Why put a 50 trim on a completely stock car and turn the boost down? He's gonna want more boost and gonna end up turning the up boost. "
....thats where that COMMON SENSE I was talking about comes into play.

 

[diablos991]

You have that option with dsmlink and if you plan to go beyond 450hp you won't have to upgrade your injectors again. You would be fine with some 850's with link.

A great reason not to switch to a 14b is the cost of the installation kit that you need. Why not just do a direct swap for another t25 and save the money for what he really wants/needs.

There would be little to no difference if he just swapped the t25 with the 14b ceteris paribus.

Oh the wonderful world of economics and the fantastic terms you gain from it.

I agree with you, but genius above was telling him to not get a 14b because he would run into tuning issues!?!?! the bottom line is; if he has money to get the 50trim now, get it....if not, put another t25 on there and follow the "normal" upgrade path then.

You, my friend, should do some research yourself on that turbocharger(50 trim). If it is even possible to run it at 10 psi, running it at low boost would be a major downgrade to the vehicle due to the spoolup time.
Those tuning issues that you, and all that ever change boost from the stock settings, should be aware of is detonation. Monitoring and being able to correct this is a major factor in why kids these days break stuff and think that these cars are unreliable. Did I ever mention a tuning device? (I said logger and boost controller) So the bottom line is actually that you should read into what I say before mocking my words.

 

[Chuck_3]

your mod list means nothing to me....just because I strap a rocket to my lawnchair, doesn't mean it can fly ...but I'll give you benefit of doubt.

see this..."Why put a 50 trim on a completely stock car and turn the boost down? He's gonna want more boost and gonna end up turning the up boost. "
....thats where that COMMON SENSE I was talking about comes into play.

Good point. Lol.

Yeah it would definitely take some common sense and some discipline to keep the boost down.

 

[98EclipseTurbo]

14b would be a nice replacement. While you have it off port it along with your exhaust .anifold and the housing. But it will do max 280 whp not enough for the 450 whp.
Hold the boost down below 14 psi with out the fuel modifications.
For a 14b or evo 3 walbro 190 or evo pumps will be sufficient. 550 or 650 injectors.
50 trim will support your goals but with a walbro 255 and bigger injectors.
Start at least with a 14b or go for the evo 3-16g.

 

[turbosax2]

your mod list means nothing to me....just because I strap a rocket to my lawnchair, doesn't mean it can fly ...but I'll give you benefit of doubt.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=148744
Please fill out your profile completely, run-4-cover.

 

[run-4-cover]

While your train of thought is on par with some of the DSMers out there, did you take a moment to realize that he has a bone stock 2g and it requires more than just buying a turbo to get a 50 trim or even a 16G running in his car? Did you take into account that he may need a J pipe for his 16G or SMIC/FMIC piping for his 50 trim, or even an install kit for the new turbo?

While I'm quite confident that I should be at least making over 300 awhp, I for one also vote for him to replace his stock t25 with yet another t25 (albeit, $100 is a lot of money for a t25). All in all it just makes sense. Why build an engine/goals around a turbo, when you're supposed to buy a turbo around the engine/goal?

We're all glad that you can run a 14B or whatever with your DSM, but truth of the matter is that it's NOT SMART to buy a gigantic turbo and run 10 psi on it.

p.s., the "vendor BS upgrade path" isn't made by vendors, it is a guide made for dsmers, by dsmers.

yes, I realize what it takes to run a 50 trim....some elbow grease and ingenuity.... do you really think a 2g install kit is worth the $130-200 I've seen them listed for?...number one, you don't need those gaskets, because RTV works just as well on machined flat surfaces...you can buy all the water fittings at the local hardware shop....and from what I gather, you only need the oil supply line, because the others can be made to work(I haven't swapped my 2g yet, so haven't given it a second look)....albeit, I know I mentioned that in my inital post.

a j pipe!?!?! $20 on ebay!!!!

If you don't have a timeslip or dyno, then you don't have 300whp...period!

he's not building around a turbo...he already knows the turbo he wants (which happens to support his HP goals)...thats the logical way to do it....would you build a forged engine to make 300whp? would you use carrillo rods in a 450whp engine, or eagle rods? which would you use for a 600whp build?.....so, yes....I say build around the HP goal...again...think outside the box.

it was an 18g most likely making as much power as you are now...so it's smart to spend $100 on a turbo your going to get rid of anyways? instead of applying that money to what you really want?...not to mention paying for labor twice...and if I listen to you, buying a set of gaskets twice....c'mon, think about it...

"It's basically buying a 800 dollar turbo that does the same job a $50 t25 does." ...until you get the money to buy the supporting mods....the money will be spent either way...YOUR WAY: he ends up paying for another garbage turbo now + labor to change it twice + the 50trim later.....read: wasted money! MY WAY: he spends money on the 50trim + one time installation = done with it....save for other mods now...the heart is there.

P.S....your wrong, the upgrade path was started by either buschur or RRE waay back in the day....DSMers adopted it as gospel.

do you see under my name it sez proven member, but I only have a few posts....I've been here since 90 something...I'm not new to this


here's a test...call a few shops and tell them, "hey, I have the money to buy a 50trim from you right now, but I would like to know if I should just get another stock turbo for now since I don't have any supporting mods....I was planning to just run it at low boost until I upgrade everything else".....be sure you let on that you have no intentions of buying anything else from them anytime soon(ie; supporting mods), other than the 50trim right now....see how many of them tell you," no, you have to stick to the upgrade chart, we won't sell you this turbo, you'll blow your engine"

....try that, and see how many different answers you get.

 

[run-4-cover]

A great reason not to switch to a 14b is the cost of the installation kit that you need. Why not just do a direct swap for another t25 and save the money for what he really wants/needs.

There would be little to no difference if he just swapped the t25 with the 14b ceteris paribus.

Oh the wonderful world of economics and the fantastic terms you gain from it.



You, my friend, should do some research yourself on that turbocharger(50 trim). If it is even possible to run it at 10 psi, running it at low boost would be a major downgrade to the vehicle due to the spoolup time.
Those tuning issues that you, and all that ever change boost from the stock settings, should be aware of is detonation. Monitoring and being able to correct this is a major factor in why kids these days break stuff and think that these cars are unreliable. Did I ever mention a tuning device? (I said logger and boost controller) So the bottom line is actually that you should read into what I say before mocking my words.

so he should waste money just to have a little turbo that spools up at ~2500 rpms vs. ~3100rpms? what would he care, he wouldn't be beating on the car anyways....especially since he would end up changing the turbo anyways...self restraint is a powerful tool.

ummm....you are trying to tell me a 14b will detonate when you raise the boost on a stock dsm? ...again, common sense comes into play....you act like a 50trim is some hughe turbo....of course you can run it at 10psi!...it's all dictated by the size of your wastegate and spring.

Mock you? pleeeease!!!....I called you on some BS you posted, I don't need to mock you.....you told the thread starter he would run into tuning issues if he put a 14b on his 2nd gen....I'm waiting on you to tell us what those issues are....because if you can't, then your talking out the side of your neck. period! You basically told him he shouldn't get a 14b because he's new to tuning (you were until you learned, right?)...albeit, by putting a stock 14b on a 2nd gen!?!?!?!

...I await that explanation...and please don't tell me detonation, becuase any dumba$$ knows if you connect a 14b to the 2g's solenoid, it will only boost whatever the t25 boosts when connected to it (providing the 14b doesn't have a stiffer base wg spring).....especially considering you can do 16psi on a 14b all day, and it won't hold it to redline anyways....now if I'm missing something, please enlighten me, otherwise, don't say I mocked you, because I call BS when I see it. period.

 

[diablos991]

Alright, since you lack the common sense to realize what I am saying here I will lay it our for you in such a way that a 4th grader should be able to understand.

Whenever changing boost from the stock settings, it is a good idea to monitor for
detonation since the vehicle is tuned from the factory to run at a specific level of boost.
Though detonation may not occur, there is the chance that it will. Detonation is one of the leading causes of engine failure. Therefore, why not take every chance to restrict this from occurring? Then again, logic has it's way of staying away from your mind for a reasone I have not been able to place.

Now, on to another extremely important part of information that you failed to pick up since the 90s when you say you started trolling this site: 10 psi on a t-25 is not equal to 10 psi on a 50 trim or a 14b. The main factor is airflow. (lb/m) Regardless, I think many on this site would agree that whenever changing boost you should always log for detonation.

Please, research this and post back as soon as possible since many readers of this post can't get enough of your posts in this thread. It seems as though your purpose is to stir up the posters and get them angry. You could at least be mature and constructive in your criticizm or differences in opinion. You will find that you get a much more positive response that way.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

WOW! I didn't realize my OP would start such a ruckus. Despite all the back and forth arguing, I'm actually starting to lean a certain way. I won't say what way at this piont but...

A great reason not to switch to a 14b is the cost of the installation kit that you need. Why not just do a direct swap for another t25 and save the money for what he really wants/needs.

This is the kind of helpful information that I was looking for. I didn't realize that an install kit was needed to change a 2g over to a 14b. That would seem kinda silly since the HP gains from a T25 to a 14b are very moderate. Not to mention, that if ultimately I'm looking at a 50 trim, that install kit would become obsolete... correct?

I did want to update you guys a bit on my current situation since it seems that a majority of you haven't read my profile.

1. I've got a few engine monitoring devices right now... namely a boost gauge. And I'm currently bidding on a m515 right now and will have ordered Pocketlogger as soon as i win a damn auction.
2. I do have an MBC and have been abusing the T25 at 15lbs. of boost for all of 2,000 miles (tops) for 6 months. (Yes, it is my DD... but all I do is go and forth to work in it)
3. It's had a Type S BOV since the day I got it.
4. The reason I haven't splurged on other upgrades is because I'm still trying to work out all the kinks and get every bit of maintenance done and boost leak fixed. So, having some self restraint is possible (I've been doing that since I got the car), especially since the car was pretty much in horrible condition when I got it.
5. Money? I've got a little bit to spend... I've actually got a lot more that I could spend, but I am trying to buy a house for myself, my wife, and our 3 kids. So, I've kinda capped myself at 1,000 - 1,500 (that's including the 500+ dollars for the timing belt/water pump change)
6. And lastly, I'm towing my car 2 1/2 hours away in order to take it to a very reputable shop that specializes in our cars. You can check his creds at www.englishracing.net
7. Oh yea... and I'm a ricer.


...let the debate continue!!

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

NICE!!! I just won a Palm m515 for $48 shipped!!! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=260152473725&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=016

 

[Zenja]

Alright, since you lack the common sense to realize what I am saying here I will lay it our for you in such a way that a 4th grader should be able to understand.

Whenever changing boost from the stock settings, it is a good idea to monitor for
detonation since the vehicle is tuned from the factory to run at a specific level of boost.
Though detonation may not occur, there is the chance that it will. Detonation is one of the leading causes of engine failure. Therefore, why not take every chance to restrict this from occurring? Then again, logic has it's way of staying away from your mind for a reasone I have not been able to place.

I can't believe some of you suggest that swapping from a T25 to 14b is dangerous and you need to tune for it. It's a STOCK turbo from a 1g and a 1g is less prepared to handle it than a 2g (other than the BOV, at higher boosts). There's more fuel and exhaust flow. It's the installation kit that would cause any kind of reason not to go with a 14b.

No, the cars aren't tuned for a specific level of boost. All relevant tuning parameters are in tables that vary with load (boost). Running more or less airflow or boost will be compensated for. From what I hear, 2gs have less aggressive timing maps even.

 

[diablos991]

I can't believe some of you suggest that swapping from a T25 to 14b is dangerous and you need to tune for it. It's a STOCK turbo from a 1g and a 1g is less prepared to handle it than a 2g (other than the BOV, at higher boosts). There's more fuel and exhaust flow. It's the installation kit that would cause any kind of reason not to go with a 14b.

No, the cars aren't tuned for a specific level of boost. All relevant tuning parameters are in tables that vary with load (boost). Running more or less airflow or boost will be compensated for. From what I hear, 2gs have less aggressive timing maps even.

Once again I have been misinterpreted. Please read through what I write carefully.
I never said that swapping to a 14b would be immediately dangerous and would cause your engine to sponaneously combust. I was trying to convey that the swap is an unnecessary risk.
The 14b is a larger turbocharger. 10psi on a 14b is different then 10psi on a t-25. Albeit not much different. This next part is where you guys misread what I type. I never said you had to tune for a 14b. What I said i that you must monitor for detonation. Sure, some if not most DSMs will be fine on the 14b, however, you are still taking an unnecessary risk by not monitoring. Back in the day, I used to think that running a close to stock turbocharger would cause no problems. However, after a few experiences in logging with these cars proved otherwise.

My suggestions are based on what i believe to be the safest route. A fair amount of you may see me as too cautious, however, I see my self as minimizing risk.

 

[Zenja]

Once again I have been misinterpreted. Please read through what I write carefully.
I never said that swapping to a 14b would be immediately dangerous and would cause your engine to sponaneously combust. I was trying to convey that the swap is an unnecessary risk.
The 14b is a larger turbocharger. 10psi on a 14b is different then 10psi on a t-25. Albeit not much different. This next part is where you guys misread what I type. I never said you had to tune for a 14b. What I said i that you must monitor for detonation. Sure, some if not most DSMs will be fine on the 14b, however, you are still taking an unnecessary risk by not monitoring. Back in the day, I used to think that running a close to stock turbocharger would cause no problems. However, after a few experiences in logging with these cars proved otherwise.

My suggestions are based on what i believe to be the safest route. A fair amount of you may see me as too cautious, however, I see my self as minimizing risk.

I agree with most of what you said here. I guess I was replying to one point you made and the rest was addressed to other posts in this thread. I know firsthand that it's possible to knock even at stock boost with a stock turbo (it was happening to my car for years), and I think a datalogger should be a first mod for sure.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Somebody should revamp that upgrade path, seeing as how datalogging (NOT Engine Management) doesnt' even show up until after you've gotten ALL the Stage 1 upgrades.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

10psi on a 14b is different then 10psi on a t-25. Albeit not much different.

I've tried to explain this to people and they never quite get it. It's because the 14b (or any turbo for that matter) is larger then the T-25. PSI is pressure per square inch. So if the turbo is larger, then 10PSI is not the same amount of air that a stock T-25 at 10PSI is.

My suggestions are based on what i believe to be the safest route. A fair amount of you may see me as too cautious, however, I see my self as minimizing risk.

I'm with you there. If you change ANYTHING on your car to enhance performance in any way, you need to do a once over on your tune in most cases. I mean seriously, it's a DSM. Be safe and you wont follow the stereotype that all of us are some boost whoring SOB that just wants to blow the engine. (IE: That GSX that blows up trying to "race" that M3) Go against the grain.

So 95CarbonEclipse, just go with the T-25 again for a bit and save up money to do it right. Because $100 bucks or so to have the car running the same way as you had it and the ability to drive it the way you used to immediately is always nice. Plus then you can scare the crap out of yourself and have that silly grin once you get everything done with the 50 Trim and you will be a happy man .

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

Does the 50 trim bolt onto the 2g manifold? Or would I have to get the mani. and O2 housing to fit first??

 

[Chuck_3]

You can get it with a Mitsu housing that will bolt to the stock manifold.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

That's nice to know... I don't think I could ever save up enough money to get a badass Garrett turbo AND the manifold AND the O2 housing.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

So, I'm thinking that I'll be sticking with the T25 (for now), that still leaves me with at least $400 to blow on supporting mods. Figuring that I've already gotten the Palm and I'm ordering Pocketlogger, what should I upgrade next? According to the Upgrade path, I should get an intake and exhaust next.

 

[lauj2gdsm]

$400 ??? i would get a ebay exhaust, bov and intake filter adapter + fuel pump you should be set...

 

[BoostFrenzy]

According to the Upgrade path, I should get an intake and exhaust next.

The upgrade path is correct. Get those from some solid vendors (Or even look in the classifieds for good deals) and then since you will have a logger you can see if you will need an AFC or something similar to control the fuel. (Most likely will to fine tune it the way you want it to run. Not always the case though). Then play with your MBC some more for a bit more power. And then save save save for the dream turbo. And then just keep building on from there. Planning and research is key.

 

[95CarbonEclipse]

The upgrade path is correct. Get those from some solid vendors (Or even look in the classifieds for good deals) and then since you will have a logger you can see if you will need an AFC or something similar to control the fuel. (Most likely will to fine tune it the way you want it to run. Not always the case though). Then play with your MBC some more for a bit more power. And then save save save for the dream turbo. And then just keep building on from there. Planning and research is key.

Okay... I've been wanting to order the full 3" exhaust from Megan (DP+Cat Back)... and I could probably squeeze an AFC in there if I shop around. Should I even worry about getting DSMlink?

 

[zippyshoe]

Okay... I've been wanting to order the full 3" exhaust from Megan (DP+Cat Back)... and I could probably squeeze an AFC in there if I shop around. Should I even worry about getting DSMlink?

If I were in your shoes, I would opt for DSMLink. DSMLink is a much more capable tuning tool than any piggyback fuel controller (such as AFC.) Plus, DSMLink also provides logging capabilities, so you don't need to purchase a separate datalogger. Also, you are in a good position since you should already have an EPROM ECU (which is required for DSMLink) in your '95 GSX. With DSMLink, you will be able to tune in large injectors (1000cc) without any trouble. With a piggyback controller, you will be limited to an injector size of around 660cc (unless you get your ECU "chipped"). Good luck with your decision.

 

[BoostFrenzy]

Okay... I've been wanting to order the full 3" exhaust from Megan (DP+Cat Back)... and I could probably squeeze an AFC in there if I shop around. Should I even worry about getting DSMlink?

Megan is a good company. A friend of mine did testing for their exhaust system and it worked out well. Since you already have the logger, DSMLink should be on the back burner. I am currently piecing a DSMLink package together (You sir are quite lucky to already have an Eprom ). If you are trying to "squeeze" the price of a AFC into your budget, then Link is out of the question. Plus with DSMLink, it is wise to have many other things to go along with it so you get the most accurate readings.

So you can look:
http://www.dsmlink.com/index.html