Starting Funky

[StManTiS]

Basically the car wasn't getting spark, so thanks to some help from the community here it was traced to an ECU. From the classifieds i got a new eprom ECU for the 90 AWD.

Now the car starts but dies unless i keep the gas (air) above 1k rpm. I've revved it to 6k and its more or less fine. The whole car sorta shakes/rumbles at 1000 to 1300 RPM. The whole thing smells of lawnmower gasoline.

A little background: The previous owner had it just sitting for about 5 months or so without starting it. I am going to do a complete oil/fluids change soon. The fuel is probably that old too.

On visual inspection i found both the engine cover valves (PCV and the other) to missing their hoses.

It would be my guess (however inexpert) that only some of the cylinders are working or the lack of PCV hose it cause vac problems.

What could be the problem? Any Suggestion?

 

[steve]

If it runs under the battery it's likely for the purge system.

 

[StManTiS]

If it runs under the battery it's likely for the purge system.

how important that it be connected? it doesn't seem to run to anything. and i have no AC.

 

[steve]

It's to capture the gas fumes from the tank rather than venting them and later burn them.

 

[StManTiS]

It's to capture the gas fumes from the tank rather than venting them and later burn them.

from what tank? is it supposed to be connected to something?

 

[steve]

How many tanks do you have in your car. I only have a gas tank.

 

[StManTiS]

How many tanks do you have in your car. I only have a gas tank.

theres no fuel in it though... and its at the front of the car, whilst the tank is at the back.

I always considered the fuel line going to the rail the only thing going from my tank. However i would like to know if i am mistaken.

 

[steve]

Perhaps reading the manual is in order.
The purge system is covered in the tech manual and the FSM under emissions.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/fre...tions/344490-download-1g-service-manuals.html

 

[StManTiS]

so in other words its meant to go from Purge Control valve to intake. However since i believe i am missing the Charcoal and the vac lines that go from the TB to the Purge Control Valve are closed off, there is no point for the hose and it can be removed?

Also it would explain why the engine bay reeks of fuel in general. Sort of like an old tank(as on the ones with canons used in war).

 

[StManTiS]

Timing Mark 1

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Timing Mark 2

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Where they're supposed to meet

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I would define that as timing being horribly off. Am i correct? Could this have cause damage?

Also is there a guide on how to set the CAS when setting timing?

Further i found a box and a relay. The box has not brand only the sticker shown. The relay doesn't go anywhere.

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either of these vital/serving a purpose?

 

[steve]

You need to keep turning the crank until the dowel pins in the cams are at 12 o'clock and without seeing the crank mark or checking to see if the #1 piston is at TDC there is no way to know how far off the timing is, if at all. In your last picture the dowel pins are at about 6 o'clock.

 

[StManTiS]

Alright so i rotated it by hand, and the timing lines up.

So i figured since it ran worse are i plugged the Vac leaks it wasn't getting enough air. So I screwed out the idle screw as far as it would go, and that made it not sputter when starting but it still dies.

Holding open the throttle body by hand makes it rev no matter how little it is opened, and by rev I mean to 5K +.

So the question here is: Is my throttle body dead? Or is the problem something else entirely?

oh and another quick question:

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Are those any good?

 

[jeremylee_7]

First thing i would do is take the t.b. off and give it a good cleaning, also go ahead and back the BISS out all the way and replace the oring in there. For info on cleaning go to Throttle Body Cleaning. For info on the BISS go to BISS

With the t.b. off you should also test the tps sensor TPS Adjustment

Also here is info on setting timing with the CAS Engine Timing



In regards to the shocks question - KYB GR2s are what came on the car stock, some people just replace them when they get old with a new set of GR2s, dont quote me on this as I am not sure but a fellow DSMer told me that there was a revision to the new GR2s over what came on the car. Most everyone else either gets coilovers or KYB AGX shocks. Eibach prokit springs are nice to get when changing your shocks and give you, in most peoples opinion, the right amount of drop while still being easily drivable.

 

[steve]

Just don't use the TPS adjustment procedure on that link.

Set the TPS by it's output voltage not by resistance unless you do the math to find the right value. It will differ depending on the actual +5 sensor voltage and the total resistance of your TPS.

 

[StManTiS]

The TPS was already set when i cleaned the TB (resistance method)

The BISS is out as far as it will go, at that setting its supposed to give the highest amount of air...however the car doesn't get enough air to idle.

I'm figuring that the idle mechanism is somehow dead...

 

[steve]

Seeing how this is almost a month old and hasn't been solved, let's make sure it clear what the problem is.

Basically the car wasn't getting spark, so thanks to some help from the community here it was traced to an ECU. From the classifieds i got a new eprom ECU for the 90 AWD.

Are you sure the new ECU is a 90 EPROM? That means you have to look inside the case and make sure of what number is on the white edge connector since boards and cases are often swapped. It should say 4478 or 4474 for a 90 federal turbo ECU. If you can't find the number post a clear picture of the whole board.

Now the car starts but dies unless i keep the gas (air) above 1k rpm. I've revved it to 6k and its more or less fine. The whole car sorta shakes/rumbles at 1000 to 1300 RPM. The whole thing smells of lawnmower gasoline.

A little background: The previous owner had it just sitting for about 5 months or so without starting it. I am going to do a complete oil/fluids change soon. The fuel is probably that old too.

So it won't idle even after warming up. Have you drained all the old fuel?

Have you checked the compression?
Measured the coils on the ISC?
Set the base ignition timing?

 

[StManTiS]

Seeing how this is almost a month old and hasn't been solved, let's make sure it clear what the problem is.



Are you sure the new ECU is a 90 EPROM? That means you have to look inside the case and make sure of what number is on the white edge connector since boards and cases are often swapped. It should say 4478 or 4474 for a 90 federal turbo ECU. If you can't find the number post a clear picture of the whole board.



So it won't idle even after warming up. Have you drained all the old fuel?

Have you checked the compression?
Measured the coils on the ISC?
Set the base ignition timing?

its a 1990 EPROM Federal ECU. It doesn't get a chance to warm up because it starts, goes to 2k RPMs, chills there for like 3 seconds then starts going down until it dies.

Basically what i've done:
1) NO START -> new ECU, now it starts but dies slowly
2) Found out VAC lines for emissions are missing, no controller for boost -> Got EGR block off, replaced all VAC lines.
3)Now it dies FASTER than it did with a hole instead of EGR/Block-off -> It isn't getting enough air, unscrew BISS all the way (also TB cleaned and set using resistance method)
4)STILL not enough for it to idle properly -> ?New TB?

On the side:
1) Checked timing, its dead on
2) Oil Change 10W-30 Mobil 1
3) New Oil Filter, FRAM
4) Revs fine to redline if the gas is pushed
5) Spark plugs mint, magnecor wires, gapped to .3
6) New Dejon intake with new KN filter
7) AFR and boost gauges from GlowShift
8)MBC from NXS

Appendix:
1) VAC lines: manifold to PCV, Manifold to BOV (crushed by previous owner), Manifold to brake booster, Wastegate to MBC to turbo outlet pipe
2) the crankcase vent valve has a small air filter on it instead of taking from intake
3) The battery on it is dead, not sure if the alternator works'
4) The AC was removed by previous owner, as was all the emissions.
4.5) The throttle body has the top two connections plugged and the other two bridged as seen in photos posted earlier

EDIT: the final thing that bothers me is that even if I push the gas pedal down the slightest bit, it revs uncontrollably as if its at WOT. As far as i understand it the engine should be RPM limited by the air its getting. So how it that is can rev without me changing the pedal pressure? Is that a sign of a bad MAF or a bad TB?

 

[jeremylee_7]

If you have checked/rechecked ignition timing, ISC coils, TPS, and compression then you possibly could have an ecu with a bad ISC driver or other driver.

Do you have access to a logger, or better yet an ecu with dsmlink, seeing what all the sensors are reading can make all the difference.

 

[StManTiS]

ISC coils being?

 

[steve]

ISC coils being?

Stealth 316 - ISC Servo Motro

 

[jeremylee_7]

Here is a link with info about checking the resistance on the coils to determine if the ISC is bad

DmTaLoN's Idle Speed Control Test/Fix Page!

 

[StManTiS]

Well with the new throttle body installed, the ISC on it is good...and Air no longer seems to be the problem.

Now theres a more interesting set of symptoms.

Before i could feather the throttle to keep it going, push in let off a bit push again ETC. Now after letting go of the throttle even a tiny bit the car comes crashing down to dead from ANY RPMs (testes 3k to 6k). Whats more is that ti has no problem getting to those RPMs or redline and makes no weird noises while doing it. I thought maybe the gas was bad so i emptied the tank and poured in new 93 octane. Same result.

The thing thats bothering me though is that it was better when it HAD a vacuum leak, so does that mean that my FPR or some other part of the fuel system is on the fritz?

Also what color are the stock injectors on a DSM? mine are a clear turquoise kind of blue.

 

[jeremylee_7]

That is the right color for the fuel injectors.

At this point I would test someone else's ecu and maf in your car to see if either one of those could be the problem.

You can test another fpr (i may even have one in my garage that i can give you for nothing more then shipping) but i dont think fuel is your problem here. If it was the vehicle should not rev just fine.

Having a reading from a logger would be nice

 

[bluegs03]

What are your compression numbers? You can buy a cheapo tester at harbor freight or autozone if you dont have one. They are under 50$ and might be the answer to your problems.

 

[StManTiS]

the straw i was grasping at with the FPR is that the car ran for LONGER with a vac leak and i was able to bring it back from near death.

Now I have a PalmOS unit thats capable of being a datalogger, the question is do I need DSM Link as well.

 

[steve]

Well with the new throttle body installed, the ISC on it is good...and Air no longer seems to be the problem.

Now theres a more interesting set of symptoms.

Before i could feather the throttle to keep it going, push in let off a bit push again ETC. Now after letting go of the throttle even a tiny bit the car comes crashing down to dead from ANY RPMs (testes 3k to 6k).

Did you reattach the throttle body ground when swapping the TB?
Set the BISS? What's the TPS voltage at idle? Is the IPS working?