Small/Thin FMIC recommendations (Time Trial/3052)

[cait sith]

I'm running a 3052 on a built motor that currently has the issue that hey, I'm not pushing the power that I should.

Tuning is good, it's just not making the power that it should. I'm topping out at about 360 WHP on a Dyno Dynamics dyno (running race fuel), and I was thinking the car should be churning out about 400WHP at least. My first thoughts go to the cheap jumbo oversized SS Autochrome piece of crap intercooler (So many things on this car confuse me).

On my '97 GSX, I was running a BigT28 with an Apexi FMIC (Back before OBX knocked them off and they stopped selling them) and was pushing about 350 crank (if DSMLink is to believed, and seeing numbers of maxed out T28s, it makes sense), which just makes my 272 cammed built motor 3052 seem all kinds of sad.

Since I'm running a road course car, I'd rather not have Captain Jumbo Drag Race sized intercoolers that seem to be all the rage. The smaller the IC the better. Hell, I'd go to a SMIC if there's a way for it to happen with my 400WHP goal.

Custom fabbing is an option, but bolt-on would be nice.

My only other thought where the car is falling on its face that bad is from the 2G intake manifold/Brian Crower cams .

Anyways, thoughts/interest would be helpful.

 

[TSiAWD666]

If you've got a stock mouthed opening I actually have a CBRD evo intercooler with a 3.8" garret core that I had originally planned to use before getting Brilliant's widebody. PM me if interested. That's an option for you in general though is to explore the EVO intercoolers and fab piping to work with them as well as mounts.

If you do end up considering the custom route I had a good experience with Bell Intercoolers for my custom sized fmic. Designed exactly as I asked, they helped with the design, and it was produced pretty quickly. Price was I want to say in the $800 range?

 

[MY1GDSM]

Call up ETS they can build you something to suit your needs... They are Hands down the Best out there from my experience and if your looking for more airflow to the Radiator that's not an issues since the start this has been one of their fist concerns.

 

[TofastForU_99]

I ran a SSAC intercooler for a while with no ill effect on my IATs. What is your IATs at the end of a pull. That will tell you if the intercooler is working or not.

 

[importracr317]

Just a thought...how's your IC pipe routed? Short route? How much boost?

 

[snowborder714]

I ran a SSAC intercooler for a while with no ill effect on my IATs. What is your IATs at the end of a pull. That will tell you if the intercooler is working or not.

The SSAC works well, but it's a 3" thick intercooler that blocks air from getting to your radiator if not ducted properly. I have some issues in regards to this when out on the road course. So this thread is not all about just finding one that will keep IAT's in check.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

What does the timing curve look like, afr and boost level? I made over 460whp with that turbo on a stock 2g intake manifold at 25 psi with no tuning on the dyno. Later with a few changes and 28 psi it made over 550whp. I'd be looking at the tune first before the intercooler or other parts. Lastly, have you double checked that there aren't any boost leaks?

 

[ExtremeTurboSystems]

Datalogs? i agree, i would be looking into the tune first. if you want to try a custom IC or something along those lines we always have the capability to do that as well.

 

[cait sith]

I don't have the timing curve/IAT/datalog on hand unfortunately as the dyno run wasn't performed on my laptop.

The car was dyno'd/checked over @ DSG - DENT Sport Garage - Self Built. A sport garage in Norwood, MA. USA and they're not exactly idiots with the 4G63.

No boost leaks, did a pull with no regards to knock, and still was making jack and crap for power. Compression was all good, turbo spins well, tial was working well, etc... Which is why I'm kind of pointing fingers at the core more than anything.

I'd do a log pull, but unfortunately I'm about an hour away from my car. Maybe I'll throw a log up later in the tune forum if I need some tweaks.

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

I know Alex knows what he is doing... Do you even know what the afr's are or how much boost you're running?

 

[cait sith]

I know Alex knows what he is doing... Do you even know what the afr's are or how much boost you're running?

Not off the top of my head but I'm getting the charts tomorrow.

Edit: And the boost was 25 psi.

 

[ExtremeTurboSystems]

Intercooler could cause high AIT and that would make it hard to make power. also, what kind of intake/exhaust? any obstructions?

 

[RvlutionMtrsprt]

I'm gonna guess the timing is low. Is your motor a 2.0? Peak power with that turbo is around 30psi on a 2.0. Even at 25 on a DD dyno I would think you should he able to make 400+. Post a log when you can so we can take a look at it.

 

[cait sith]

4 inch FP intake with a giant K&N on it, SSAC FMIC, 3.5" GM MAFT, no obstructions.

Exhaust is an apexi 3" N1 setup with the front downpipe cut up and a more or less full 2.75 to 3" setup. (We thought that was one of the restrictions initially, and it helped out a little bit).

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[ExtremeTurboSystems]

that seems pretty good, and when you boost leak tested it there was nothing leaking out the exhaust right?so that eliminates valves or problems in the head and compression tested so that eliminates the bottom end. to me it seems its in the tune or something with the IC not doing its job very well. what do the wheels on the turbo look like?

 

[PieEyedPiper]

I know it's been touched on already, but I'd be surprised if your ic was the culprit.

 

[shane90gsx]

I would go with a customs ETS kit. Works well for me. and then Evo 3 intake mani and at least a 3000gt 60Mm t/b or N/t.

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[cait sith]

Super late late update on this, but after straightening out a lot of issues on the car, I've pulled together a full third gear pull on pump gas.

Car is now running an FP manifold. Boost is around 24-25 PSI. I'm pulling a LOT of timing out of the car to get rid of knock... (I pulled another degree off the board to clean it up that last bit of knock).

I realize this is getting more into tuning talk, but dang, so much knock and so little timing... I was running 12-13° on my old big T28.

 

[T2Small]

I run a somewhat similar setup and the car is focused on local time attack and autox. Quick details, 2.4L, 2G head, PF2 cams, FP3052, 6" velocity stack intake, and Kinetic FMIC.

Moving to a FMIC *has* caused me overheating problems under sustained power production. Never had any issues on the street or autox in terms of coolant temp issues. AITs don't seem to rise at all on pulls. Overheating is potentially solved finally with ducting and finally a decent oil cooler. (Proof in a few weeks.)

I compared your timing table to my settings, and you are running just a bit less timing than I am for my 94 octane w/ methanol injection. You are running about the same timing as I do for my non methanol injection map. For comparison, I made 433 AWHP on a Mustang AWD dyno at about 23 PSI of boost with methanol/water injection. With the lower timing map and straight 94 octane it made 330 AWHP at 13 PSI of boost.

Initially I thought you were running a lot more timing than I am but I finally noticed that you are using the "Timing Adjustments Table." If you have a 2.0L and a 2G head I'm not surprised if you need a bit less timing than I do.

 

[cait sith]

I run a somewhat similar setup and the car is focused on local time attack and autox. Quick details, 2.4L, 2G head, PF2 cams, FP3052, 6" velocity stack intake, and Kinetic FMIC.

Moving to a FMIC *has* caused me overheating problems under sustained power production. Never had any issues on the street or autox in terms of coolant temp issues. AITs don't seem to rise at all on pulls. Overheating is potentially solved finally with ducting and finally a decent oil cooler. (Proof in a few weeks.)

I compared your timing table to my settings, and you are running just a bit less timing than I am for my 94 octane w/ methanol injection. You are running about the same timing as I do for my non methanol injection map. For comparison, I made 433 AWHP on a Mustang AWD dyno at about 23 PSI of boost with methanol/water injection. With the lower timing map and straight 94 octane it made 330 AWHP at 13 PSI of boost.

Initially I thought you were running a lot more timing than I am but I finally noticed that you are using the "Timing Adjustments Table." If you have a 2.0L and a 2G head I'm not surprised if you need a bit less timing than I do.

Cool, thanks for the update. I don't feel so bad about the power issue so much anymore. I plan on dumping half the tank in with leaded race fuel just for safety sake and then maybe down the road put a "real" FMIC and better cams to help it push some more air properly.

And yeah, when I went to an external oil cooler from the little weenie water/oil cooler that comes stock, my coolant temperatures went straight down as did my oil temperatures. I think I would peak at about 105-110ish °C on my oil temps (which is totally acceptable for me) after I put my Greddy 13 row in.

I also built a big sheetmetal duct setup after I redid the exhaust manifold studs and pulled the AC out. I also blanketed my manifold, blanketed my turbo, wrapped my O2 dump, 02 housing, and about 1/3 of my downpipe. to keep heat in.

 

[cait sith]

Took it up to the track today, had to pull some fuel, still knocking like crazy (even on 98 octane), and the car gets way overheated after four laps flat out.

Chinese intercoolers are J U N K for anything other than photo shoots and bragging to your friends about your sweet 5 second dyno pull.