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Shep Problems.....

Posted by VRP, Jul 18, 2012

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  1. RoasT BeeF

    RoasT BeeF Proven Member

    1,564
    21
    Joined Jul 7, 2002
    Loveland, Colorado
    You know I just talked to Trevor last Monday about my own build and he specifically recommended to go with the stage 4 if I was planning on doing back to back pulls and shifting above 9500.

    So I'm wondering why you think a stage 3 should shift above 10k...?
     

    1K  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    12.993 @ 106.610 · 1G DSM
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  2. twicks69

    twicks69 Supporting Vendor

    3,236
    651
    Joined Mar 12, 2004
    Milwaukee, Wisconsin
    Another thing to consider is checking for pressure plate and floater plate warpage causing an issue with incomplete disengagement due to disk dragging. As well, the Competition clutch forged fork works just fine with the OEM pivot ball, no shim. It's what I run on my car and have absolutely no issues with it. Granted, I am also running a gear drive QM.

    I have sold a few of the Comp twins to customers and all of them are running with the Comp fork and either OEM or Comp pivot ball, no metal or plastic shim; no problems. They are also running an OEM throwout bearing because I have seen a couple cases of the conical TOB seperating causing disengagement issues. As well, if you look closely at the Comp fork, the TOB clip engagement holes on the fork are incorrectly offset so the TOB clip does not have 100% engagement of the TOB; instead, it only retains the TOB on its side tabs instead of the entire upper 1/2 of the circumference of the TOB.

    Personally, I would be running an OEM pivot ball, OEM TOB, and Comp fork; unshimmed; after checking and confirming that your frictions and floater/pressure plate are within the 0.008" warpage maximum value. After that is complete, then I would look at clutch hydraulics, pedal assembly, and clutch adjustment.

    It's not the transmission causing the issue, unless you already sh**bagged the synchros from improper clutch adjustment or over-disengagement damage to the clutch assembly.

    On a final note, confirm all fasteners/dowels are installed to torque specs and the trans is not pushing away from the block causing disengagement issues, as well as confirming that you don't have damaged shift cables or cable bracketry.


    Good luck with your problems; we are only here trying to help you.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jul 10, 2014

    Drag Race Build 7K  12  76

    1999 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.499 @ 155.00 · 2G DSM
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  3. Archer Fabrications

    Archer Fabrications Supporting Vendor

    6,155
    916
    Joined May 9, 2011
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    Tim, is there anything wrong with runnin the competition picot ball,
    It seems to be some sort of aluminium or super light metal. Oem is steel. I didn't hear anout anyone having problems so i ditched the old oem for the one that came with my forged fork. Of course unshimmed. Oem was previously shimmed with the oem fork though.
     

    452  7

    2006 Evo 9 MR
    awd · manual · Lancer Evolution
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  4. VRP

    VRP Proven Member

    112
    0
    Joined Aug 22, 2011
    Brooks, Georgia
    My Comp Twin Disc Kit came with their pivot ball and it had a .060 plastic shim on it from them..:hmm:
     
  5. rEclipserGST

    rEclipserGST Proven Member

    1,565
    49
    Joined Nov 17, 2007
    Columbus, Ohio
    We may have a winner!!!!
     

    Street Build 619  25

    1995 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    187 whp · 200 lb/ft · 2G DSM
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  6. VRP

    VRP Proven Member

    112
    0
    Joined Aug 22, 2011
    Brooks, Georgia
    Well, I did not use the plastic one..The motor was out of the car so I was able to try the clutch and trans with and with out any shims, easiley..The fork just looked better in the window with a .063 steel washer (shim) .....so that is what we went with...
     
  7. Archer Fabrications

    Archer Fabrications Supporting Vendor

    6,155
    916
    Joined May 9, 2011
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    its supposed to be centered, nor on either side of the window. lose the shim. you may have tried it with no shims as far as mocking up, but it sounds like you never did this illustrious 2-3 pull off the line with no shims i bet. did you use this same .063 shim on all 3 trannys that blew?
     

    452  7

    2006 Evo 9 MR
    awd · manual · Lancer Evolution
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  8. TSIfreek

    TSIfreek Proven Member

    1,644
    13
    Joined Dec 14, 2003
    cary, Illinois
    Best thing to do at this point is to pull the trans out and inspect the clutch for warpage like Tim said he has some great points there.
    Personally I would try running it without the shim or maybe do a .030" shim and see what happens. It just seriously sounds like your over extending the clutch and its dragging on the flywheel or completly locking up on the flywheel.
    Another thing to add is if the clutch petal assembly has been rebuilt if not I would do that as well.
     
    TSIfreek

    1K  0

    1990 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    11.27 @ 127 · 1G DSM
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  9. 1SLOW93TURBO

    1SLOW93TURBO Proven Member

    89
    2
    Joined Aug 21, 2005
    Louisburg, Kansas
    I wish I still had my Shep Stage 4 I'd take your money! I had logs of me shifting a few times at 11,400 rpms and every other time I shifted at 10,400-10,800 and it shifted like butter every time. The trans had basically 2,000 miles of nothing but hard pulls on it. Also I was using the first Quarter Master twin disc, Amsoil 75w110 fluid and stock non-modified clutch pedal.

    Oh yeah I was running 42 psi, 800awhp and 9's.

    Sorry to see your having issues and hope everything works out, but wanted you to know that not every one has had issues.
     

    1K  0

    1992 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    9.893 @ 146.340 · 1G DSM
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  10. gofer

    gofer Moderator

    5,484
    971
    Joined Feb 18, 2006
    South Gilbert, Arizona
    Since Competition Clutch isn't a supporting vendor here I'm going to go ahead and say that I was LESS THAN IMPRESSED with them when I did some R&D on their "Stage 4 PP/street disk" clutch package and the billet shift fork they market now back in 2010. RRE did the install (brand new RRE flywheel, CC stage 4 pressure plate, CC street disk, OEM TOB, CC billet shift fork, OEM pivot ball) and then they called the CC rep to come out and test drive my car. He showed up drunk and I'll be damned if I let him drive my car, very VERY unprofessional, and to top that off that "stage 4" crap burnt up at just 387 ft/lbs torque when Sam and I took her for a spin. The guy that showed up didn't seem to know anything and the vibe I got from the way he talked about it was he just wanted a product that he could market to put money in his (CC) pocket. /rant

    I like the shift fork, I just had to go back to ACT after that mess.

    I realize you haven't just ran a CC and still had the same results, however, did you shim the pivot ball when you were running the other clutch setups?

    :dsm:
     

    Street Build 16K  12  61

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.634 @ 126.050 · 2G DSM

    2K  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    manual · 2G DSM
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  11. Archer Fabrications

    Archer Fabrications Supporting Vendor

    6,155
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    Joined May 9, 2011
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    he seems to be dodging the shimmed fulcrum question often..
     

    452  7

    2006 Evo 9 MR
    awd · manual · Lancer Evolution
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  12. gofer

    gofer Moderator

    5,484
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    Joined Feb 18, 2006
    South Gilbert, Arizona
    I would too. I wouldn't want to admit that a $0.30 washer cost me three Shep transmissions and tons of sleepless nights. Hopefully, though, it is something as simple as that because it's easily corrected.

    :dsm:
     

    Street Build 16K  12  61

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.634 @ 126.050 · 2G DSM

    2K  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    manual · 2G DSM
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  13. Archer Fabrications

    Archer Fabrications Supporting Vendor

    6,155
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    Joined May 9, 2011
    Scottsdale, Arizona
    +1, arent you supposed to only shim as a bandaid and if you have worn step height on your flywheel, or a worn clutch... in otherwords replace that crap and you wont NEED a shim? LOL thats what i have understood. my parts have 5k miles on them and im running no shim. when my shep trans gets in, i will still not use a shim.
     

    452  7

    2006 Evo 9 MR
    awd · manual · Lancer Evolution
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  14. gofer

    gofer Moderator

    5,484
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    Joined Feb 18, 2006
    South Gilbert, Arizona
    I trust RRE (Mike) knows what they're doing so when I read something they've typed, I listen.
    Road Race Engineering Clutch/Flywheel Tech

    That, coupled with the other reputable DSMers that have mentioned not to shim the pivot ball, it makes sense that should be the next thing to correct.

    :dsm:
     

    Street Build 16K  12  61

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    11.634 @ 126.050 · 2G DSM

    2K  0

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse N/T
    manual · 2G DSM
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  15. ____Kurt____

    ____Kurt____ Proven Member

    367
    6
    Joined Jul 14, 2009
    North, New Jersey
    Well after reading 3 pages of what a shimmed pivot ball has caused I'm starting to wonder if that plastic washer type of deal that came with my forged fork is a shim. It came on the new pivot ball so I installed it with the new pivot ball and fork. It's never too late to pull the trans and get it out of there if it doesn't belong in there, car still has yet to have trans fluid in it and be started.
     

    693  0

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo AWD
    10.400 @ 145.000 · 1G DSM
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  16. DSM Chase

    DSM Chase Proven Member

    706
    47
    Joined Sep 19, 2011
    Brooks, Georgia
    The comp twin pivot ball came with a plastic washer on it, Dan at comp clutch claims the whole setup was built and tested in his talon before production.
     

    Street Build 1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    automatic · 1G DSM

    Street Build 5K  0

    1990 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    10.504 @ 139.65 · 1G DSM
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  17. dsmusmc

    dsmusmc Proven Member

    329
    0
    Joined Oct 1, 2007
    Alliance, Ohio
    I know where it's at if you want it.
     
  18. ____Kurt____

    ____Kurt____ Proven Member

    367
    6
    Joined Jul 14, 2009
    North, New Jersey
    I'm working on my car now and I was able to grab a picture of the fork/boot, not trying to thread jack but as were on the topic I mine as well make sure mine is good or not.
    This is a ptt twin disk and a cc forged fork with new pivot ball an the plastic washer they included. Let me know please.
    60ae0378.jpg
    aab32d6d.jpg
     

    693  0

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo AWD
    10.400 @ 145.000 · 1G DSM
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  19. 4WARND

    4WARND Proven Member

    104
    15
    Joined May 15, 2002
    Fremont, New Hampshire
    This. There has to be an issue/problem with your clutch set up somewhere. I did not see you mention the clutch master ( I may have missed it )? A new OEM master would be on my list if not already replaced. I still don't like the shimmed pivit ball.



    Here you go, 9 second pass, Stage IV trans that had been on the car for THREE complete seasons of racing. 10k on the 1-2 shift, 9500 on the 2-3 and 3-4.

    Mike Rizzotti AWD DSM 9 second pass bonus footage.... In car footage - YouTube
     

    1K  0

    1991 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    9.98 @ 140.68 · 1G DSM
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  20. ____Kurt____

    ____Kurt____ Proven Member

    367
    6
    Joined Jul 14, 2009
    North, New Jersey
    Looks like I've seen enough video footage to make me not worry about my shep stage 4. Now I just need to know about that plastic washer.
     

    693  0

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo AWD
    10.400 @ 145.000 · 1G DSM
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  21. ____Kurt____

    ____Kurt____ Proven Member

    367
    6
    Joined Jul 14, 2009
    North, New Jersey
    I called CC yesterday and asked them about the plastic washer that is included with the pivot ball and fork. They told me it wasn't a shim, it is just a nylon washer to prevent over tightening of the pivot ball and breaking it off in the trans. I then again asked if it would change the fork positioning like a shim would and he said once again no it's just a "crush washer". I'm personally confused because even a crush washer would add space between the two. So wouldn't it in theory be shimming the ball out? I mean I hear people talking about .01 differences so that plastic washer is definitely thicker than that.
     

    693  0

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo AWD
    10.400 @ 145.000 · 1G DSM
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  22. bastarddsm

    bastarddsm Proven Member

    4,426
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    Joined Aug 26, 2003
    Mendota, Illinois
    I don't have any experience with the twindisc, but I have never ran into an issue with shimming the pivot ball. BUT, it has to be done with care. I am running an ACT streetlite flywheel, that has been cut a couple times, so its now about .020 thinner than stock, putting the clutch .020 farther away from the tob. I run a .030 shim under my pivot ball right now. Ideally it should be smaller, but I'm a skank and run old worn forks and balls, so I let it be thick to compensate.

    The point is, don't blindly shim the pivot ball. Make sure you know why you need to do it. Make sure its not over shimmed.

    Finally, ever think of trying to not pretend like you have a dogbox. Push the clutch to the floor, let the synchro's work, and shift it smooth. If you just try and jam it, the slider goes right by the synchro, and straight to grind town.

    I use to try and flat shift into 3rd, and kept breaking forks and rails. Learned to stop being an idiot, and I quit breaking sh**, and it shifts better.
     

    Showcar Build 5K  1

    1991 Eagle Talon N/T
    9.805 @ 144.00 · 1G DSM
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  23. JusMX141

    JusMX141 Moderator

    12,761
    744
    Joined Dec 13, 2005
    Greensburg, Pennsylvania
    Not that it matters much, but you have the slave rod in backwards. The step in the rod is supposed to be closer to the clutch fork than the slave cylinder so the boot isn't all screwed up like yours is.


    extrod.jpg

    r698956235zhx.jpg
     

    2K  0

    1998 Mitsubishi Eclipse GST
    manual · 2G DSM

    5K  14

    1997 Mitsubishi Eclipse GSX
    awd · manual · 2G DSM

    2K  0

    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    manual · 1G DSM

    3K  0

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    manual · 1G DSM
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  24. AWD Tuner

    AWD Tuner Proven Member

    151
    2
    Joined Aug 14, 2008
    Fort Wayne, Indiana
    Bastarddsm made a point which is also found in Jack's video about proper pivot ball shimming. When surfacing flywheels to get proper step height you are taking away material which changes the positioning of the clutch. By shimming you are getting things back into spec. If anyone uses a used resurfaced flywheel there is no real way to tell how much material has been taken off which makes it hard to shim properly.
     

    1K  0

    1993 Eagle Talon TSi AWD
    automatic · 1G DSM
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  25. ____Kurt____

    ____Kurt____ Proven Member

    367
    6
    Joined Jul 14, 2009
    North, New Jersey
    Haha that's makes sense. Yea I was wondering why it was so squeezed. Should I bleed the clutch before assuming the fork position is good or that won't make a difference?
     

    693  0

    1992 Plymouth Laser RS Turbo AWD
    10.400 @ 145.000 · 1G DSM
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