Rotor & Pad Issues

[tsiboosted]

Here is the issue. I have brand new Brembo slotted rotors and brand new Hawk HP+ pads. I ran one track session over the weekend (around an hour or so of track time) and the rotors look like they have been ran over with a road gradder. I just recently changed to the Brembos becaue my old Centric rotors were gone. Now I bought the brembo rotors to replace those and this happens. Nothing fancy in the setup. Factory 2G calipers in their factory locations. Not a big brake kit, just regular sized rotors. Hawk pads were put on as you would just change out pads. Nothing fancy here either. Any ideas or direction to go in? Any ideas would be great. Thanks.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

you probably just over-heated the rotors, the stock brake setup is not the best for big track use.

When you say the rotors looked like they were run over, you mean they are cracking or what???

 

[tsiboosted]

No, rotors are not cracking. They have score marks (grooves) all the way around them. I had Centric HP slotted rotors on there for about a year with the HP+ pads and they NEVER looked like this. Even after 10-12 track sessions. Even when I changed them they still did not have grooves in them. Just worn out you know? These were right out of the box Brembos & Pads and they look worse than my year old Centric rotors.

I used the Centric/HP+ setup for a 3 day DE at Road Atlanta and it worked fine. This happened after 1 hour of track time. The brakes did get very hot, but no hotter than they did in August in Atlanta. I just do not know what could have caused this. Any ideas?

 

[hereitcomes]

if they have grooves all the way around the rotors, the pads are most likely hanging up. I had that problem installing my rear ones on my 93. Take off the rotor, and pad along with the caliper, make sure the piston(s) are fully compressed into the caliper. Put everything back on, pump the brakes and test it out. Shouldnt hang up.

 

[tsiboosted]

if they have grooves all the way around the rotors, the pads are most likely hanging up. I had that problem installing my rear ones on my 93. Take off the rotor, and pad along with the caliper, make sure the piston(s) are fully compressed into the caliper. Put everything back on, pump the brakes and test it out. Shouldnt hang up.

That is doable there. Now pardon my ineptness on this issue. When I take off the caliper and make sure the pistons are compressed, what exactly will a compressed piston look like? Will it be obvious that it is compressed or not? If this is the case, I may just get new calipers and be done with it.

 

[asian312]

The two pistons will pretty much explain themselves once you have them off. But just incase, here's a picture of a brake caliper with its pistons fully retracted (compressed):

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Dont forget to bleed you brakes. Did you bed the HP+ pads in?

 

[tsiboosted]

Thanks for the picture. You are right there, that pretty much explains it there. I did not personally put the pads nor the rotors on. So I cannot say yes or no to that question. But I will be asking the individual who put them on for sure.

 

[roadrunner2176]

Its possible that you just got some debris stuck between the rotor and pad, or when the pads were put on, they weren't shimmed properly leaving room for debris. I have also seen pads that weren't bed, or set properly; chip, crack, and separate from the backing plate.

 

[DGajre777]

Did you follow the burn-in procedure after you installed the rotors?

 

[c5chris]

Did you follow the burn-in procedure after you installed the rotors?

Exactly. Seasoning of rotors and bedding of new pads should always be done on a new brake setup, preferably old rotors with new pads or new rotors with old pads.

If you did take them to the track without heat cycling them, it would cause new rotors to warp.

 

[Locke]

Its possible that you just got some debris stuck between the rotor and pad, or when the pads were put on, they weren't shimmed properly leaving room for debris. I have also seen pads that weren't bed, or set properly; chip, crack, and separate from the backing plate.

Debris somehow getting between the pad and the rotor can cause various problems, but brake shims aren't used for the purpose of promoting even contact. A misnomer. Shims are used simply to dampen the high frequency vibrations that cause squealing. Disc brakes in good repair should wipe all debris and water from the surface of the rotor.

OP: Have you disassembled the brakes to inspect for obvious signs of improper install, or reasons for brake failure?

 

[tsiboosted]

I will be taking the brake assembly apart tonite to inspect for anything that does not look right. The guy that put them in "said" he seated them properly and used some old pads to it with. But with things that you guys have said, I am sceptical of this now. I thought of the debris idea first off, but since this has happened before with the same people putting my old pads in, I am also sceptical of that happening. Like I said, tonite I will take a part the whole brake assembly to inspect what is going on and look for anything wrong and take some pics and maybe someone can see a little better than I can what is going on here. I cant afford to put new brake systems on the car each month I want to go race you know? Thanks for all the input guys.

 

[roadrunner2176]

Thanks for correcting that Locke.

I was going on the assumption that the shims were not done properly, if even done at all, leaving the pad to wear unevenly; something behind the shim or pad when installed, leaving room for debris. Not trying to give out bad information, just seen this before where the rotors and pads were installed without cleaning them off, and a few days later they look like an old record.

Slotted rotors should cut or clean the pad whenever braking, is the problem only on one side of the rotor? Is one pad worm more than the other? Your rotors look bad, what about your brake pads? Is the problem consistent on all 4 rotors?

 

[tsiboosted]

Thanks for correcting that Locke.

I was going on the assumption that the shims were not done properly, if even done at all, leaving the pad to wear unevenly; something behind the shim or pad when installed, leaving room for debris. Not trying to give out bad information, just seen this before where the rotors and pads were installed without cleaning them off, and a few days later they look like an old record.

Slotted rotors should cut or clean the pad whenever braking, is the problem only on one side of the rotor? Is one pad worm more than the other? Your rotors look bad, what about your brake pads? Is the problem consistent on all 4 rotors?

Actually they do look like an old record to be honest with you. The drivers side looks worse off than the passenger side. ONLY in the front. The rears look fine actually. But I have inly had the front rotors and pads changed out. Due to this exact same issue as it were. I have not taken apart the brake assembly yet to see how the pad looks. I will be doing that 2nite.

 

[tsiboosted]

Ok guys, so I took the brakes apart last night and here are some pics from it. Any ideas of what I can do to correct this issue or what might have caused it woule greatly be appreciated. I am not so sure of the 'Debris' argument, just for the simple reason this is not the 1st time this has happened and it is happening on both front wheels.

This is what it looked like on Friday after installation

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And here is what it looks like now. Those grooves go all the way around and for the msot part, cover the whole rotor. Just not as bad as it is at the top of it though.

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This is what the caliper looks like.

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Here are 2 shots of the pads. 1st one is the outside pad. 2nd is the inside pad.

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[roadrunner2176]

Lots of uneven wear, your caliper looks like it could use a new seal kit.

Check the pistons for play. There shouldn't be any, they can turn, but shouldn't have any side to side.

Take an old brake pad and a c-clamp to push the pistons in. If they resist allot, your calipers are bad and either need a rebuild or replacement.

With the pads off and caliper installed, check to see that your caliper will slide freely back and forth over the rotor.

The picture of the rotor makes it look like your calipers are sticking, slots plugged, excess debris.

It's probably too late for them, but an old trick when doing any brake job is to sand the pad before installing it. It removes any glaze or grease. If your wanted too, sand your pads smooth, and see about getting those rotors turned. It might be salvagable.

Before anything I would take the parts off and show your mechanic, bring the same pictures and parts in person along with the manufacturers recommendation for properly bedding the pads and ask him these questions before showing him the paper.

In most cases though, if their your parts, the mechanic is not liable for problems by any means.

 

[tsiboosted]

Lots of uneven wear, your caliper looks like it could use a new seal kit.

Check the pistons for play. There shouldn't be any, they can turn, but shouldn't have any side to side.

Take an old brake pad and a c-clamp to push the pistons in. If they resist allot, your calipers are bad and either need a rebuild or replacement.

With the pads off and caliper installed, check to see that your caliper will slide freely back and forth over the rotor.

The picture of the rotor makes it look like your calipers are sticking, slots plugged, excess debris.

It's probably too late for them, but an old trick when doing any brake job is to sand the pad before installing it. It removes any glaze or grease. If your wanted too, sand your pads smooth, and see about getting those rotors turned. It might be salvagable.

Before anything I would take the parts off and show your mechanic, bring the same pictures and parts in person along with the manufacturers recommendation for properly bedding the pads and ask him these questions before showing him the paper.

In most cases though, if their your parts, the mechanic is not liable for problems by any means.

Yeah, I have already ordered new calipers just to have some new ones here. These look to be in bad shape. With the caliper installed and no pads in, the caliper does move freely across the rotor with no issues. I noticed the uneven wear myself. I think what I am going to do is get my new calipers, rotors and pads and go to a different mechanic. THis is twice now this has happened using him. I chalked the 1st one up to just racing and some debris in the pads. But the 2nd time, I am starting to get leary of what he is doing.

The first time I had new brake kit put on, the guy (another mechanic) did a REALLY good job and I never had any issues with them. He has since moved though. I think I will just get all new aprts and start from scratch with another mechanic/shop. Thanks for the advice.

p.s. - I checked on getting them turned, but no shop would because they were slotted. Said it could possibly mess up their lathe.

 

[roadrunner2176]

Why not just do the brakes yourself. Their extremely easy and take about 30 minutes at most, maybe 10 more per wheel for the rotor, from jack up to jack down for each tire, unless you have a lift. Just remember to clean and grease the slides with synthetic caliper grease, and apply no squeak on metal to metal contact points, IE where caliper meets the backplate of the pad, around the piston cup, corner of pads where they lock in, and tighten back down to proper torque. Besides changing oil, brakes have to to be the second easiest thing to do.

 

[talonTSIDriver]

I believe the rotors are on backwards. The slits are suppose to angle outwards pushing the heat out of the rotor, not to the middle. I don't think though that this would cause your problem. Correct me if I am wrong someone.

 

[tsiboosted]

I have thought about doing it myself yes. It was easy enough to get everything off and look at. I may try it myself. My only problem with doing things such as this myself is, if I mess something up, I have to pay double to fix it or pay someone to fix what I messed up. If a mechanic is doing it, messes up he has to pay for it not me. But I may give this a shot though.

 

[tsiboosted]

I believe the rotors are on backwards. The slits are suppose to angle outwards pushing the heat out of the rotor, not to the middle. I don’t think though that this would cause your problem. Correct me if I am wrong someone.

The paperwork with the rotors showed the way I have them on there as the rotation they needed to be installed with.

 

[daren_p]

I believe the rotors are on backwards. The slits are suppose to angle outwards pushing the heat out of the rotor, not to the middle. I don't think though that this would cause your problem. Correct me if I am wrong someone.

It doesn't usually matter what direction the slots in rotors are positioned as they really don't do much for cooling, all they basically do is keep the pad surface clean. It's when you get aftermarket rotors with directional internal vents that you have to pay attention to which way the rotors are installed.

Sounds like your picking up new calipers, which is probably a good idea as the current ones may be hanging up. I'm also curious about how your mechanic "broke in" the new setup. It sounds like you posted above that he broke in the new rotors with used pads? If this is true, what did he do that for? Thats a good way to chrew up your new rotors & doesn't do anything to bed in the new pads. If I understand correclty & thats what he did, he could be part of your problem....

Edit: I was just taking another look at the pics & was wondering why you have fwd single piston calipers when your profile says awd? From memory, it appears that your dust shields seem to be on the large size for that rotor. What size is the rotor diameter your using? If you are awd, it looks like someone may have swapped your brakes for the smaller fwd setup? If this is the case, combined with a rotor/pad that may not have been bedded in properly, that right there could be the cause.

 

[tsiboosted]

It doesn't usually matter what direction the slots in rotors are positioned as they really don't do much for cooling, all they basically do is keep the pad surface clean. It's when you get aftermarket rotors with directional internal vents that you have to pay attention to which way the rotors are installed.

Sounds like your picking up new calipers, which is probably a good idea as the current ones may be hanging up. I'm also curious about how your mechanic "broke in" the new setup. It sounds like you posted above that he broke in the new rotors with used pads? If this is true, what did he do that for? Thats a good way to chrew up your new rotors & doesn't do anything to bed in the new pads. If I understand correclty & thats what he did, he could be part of your problem....

Edit: I was just taking another look at the pics & was wondering why you have fwd single piston calipers when your profile says awd?

To my knowledge, he "said" he broke in the new pads, but of course, I do not know that for sure you know? My car is FWD, I do not do anything to my profile. I just come on here time to time to ask questions and check things out to be honest with you. No need really for me to fill it out. But it is FWD.

Is there a good thread on here how to properly bed the new pads in? I searched this morning but did not find anything worth while. Just curious is all. Thanks for the input on this guys.

 

[daren_p]

To my knowledge, he "said" he broke in the new pads, but of course, I do not know that for sure you know? My car is FWD, I do not do anything to my profile. I just come on here time to time to ask questions and check things out to be honest with you. No need really for me to fill it out. But it is FWD.

Is there a good thread on here how to properly bed the new pads in? I searched this morning but did not find anything worth while. Just curious is all. Thanks for the input on this guys.

Hmmm, okay I don't know what I was reading, I swore your profile said TSI awd. Wilwood had a good article on beding in pads but can't seem to find it basically you want to make a series of stops to gradully gets the pads up to temp & then cool them down slowly. First make 5-8 light stops from about 20-25 mph but only go down to about 10 mph you don't want to come to a complete stop at all during this whole procedure. After each stop wait about 20 seconds before you repeat again. Then make 5-8 stops around 40 mph but being abit harder on the pedal this time, wait 20 seconds after each stop & again only slow down to about 15mph with each stop. Finally make 5-8 agressive stops from around 60 mph but once again, don't come to a complete stop, bring it down to about 20 mph. Once again wait 20 seconds between each stop. Once this is complete drive the car for about 10 min not using the brakes to cool the pads/rotors down slowely. Once this is done, go home & let the car sit for the brakes to completely cool. Since you never want to come to a complete stop during the bed in procedure & you'll be brakeing all over the place for no reason you'll have to find a street with no traffic to do this.

 

[tsiboosted]

Thanks for that input Darren. I wll be doing the brakes myself this time and will follow those precedures to bed the pads in. Thanks again.