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1G Restoring front end suspension: Which parts to replace?

Posted by XC92, Oct 10, 2020

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  1. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    I'm replacing the clutch and fixing transmission issues on my '92 Talon TSi AWD, which requires detaching or removing some front end suspension parts, e.g. control arms, CV axles, etc. I figured I might as well remove everything, given how dirty and rusty they are and it's so much easier to derust, clean and paint them off the car. I could also better tell their condition this way.

    Once I got underway, it became apparent that some of these parts are due for replacement, some because they appear worn out and liable to fail, like the struts (rust holes in the knuckle brackets), others because I couldn't remove them and had to cut them out (stabilizer bar links). So, at the very least, I'll be replacing these parts. But I suspect that other parts are probably due for replacement as well, like the bushings, strut mounts, possibly the ball joints, etc.

    So I was wondering what folks think I should replace. Let's pretend that money isn't an issue given that safety, performance and ride quality are more important.

    Here's what I definitely will be replacing, on both sides of course:

    Struts: KYB GR-2
    Stabilizer Bar Links: Moog K80186

    Here's what I'm also thinking of replacing, also on both sides:

    Strut Bellows: SB101
    Strut Mounts: SM5072
    Ball Joints: MOOG K9617
    Control Arm Bushing Set: Energy Suspension 5.3108G

    Which of these do folks recommend I replace?

    And are the brands and models I listed good ones?

    The car's only got 78k miles, but it is 28 years old and dry rot and weather conditions have done their thing, I'm sure (below freezing in winter, approaching 100 in summer, lots of rain, snow and humidity). It's also 100% stock (well, other than tires, plugs, filters, belts, etc.).

    I don't race and don't intend to, but I do drive somewhat aggressively but not excessively (i.e. I'm not that guy who's weaving through highway traffic at high speed or passing on a 2-line over a double yellow line, but I do like to jump out of a stop light and merge and pass fast and take a turn tight).

    What about the actual control arms? Any reason to replace either or both? They seem fine, not bent or dented, but there's some rust that doesn't appear to be structural.

    Also, what about the coils? They look fine, but do they compress a lot over time?

    Finally, what about other front end bushings, specifically for the sway bar and subframe? Should I replace those since I'm taking things apart, or are those too much of a bother to be worth it?
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  2. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    If money is no issue just get coilovers and use / ask for softer springs for more comfort. In the end its going to be about the same for those then all the parts in the complete shock assy put together. I did my daily nissan with ultra SR kyb shocks and i was only 100 off coil overs but i didnt realise this till later on LOL

    Moog problem solvers are good items. If your doing all the arms then do them ALL as ball joints can pop out causing damage and accidents so do them all while money is not an issue and your at it anyway.

    Prothane and energy suspension are good brands so you cannot go wrong there. Prothane are normally 2 piece and ES are mostly 1 piece and need a press tool to get them in.
     

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  3. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Thanks. I've heard the term coilovers but don't really know what they are. Are you talking about a McPherson Strut-type assembly with the strut, coil, mounts and all the rest being one unit? And what are the pros & cons vs the stock setup? As I mentioned, I will never race the car.

    (I just looked it up and it was basically what I thought, however I also checked their prices and it's way over what I want to spend. When I said money's not an issue, I meant within reason and for my needs, car setup and driving style, meaning I'll spend a bit more for Moogs than some generic junk. $1000+ for 4 coilovers is way too rich for me right now especially considering the money I'll be spending on other things like a new clutch, tires, maybe new wheels, timing belt, etc. So unless there are coilovers in the $100-$150 per each range, I'll pass.)

    And when you say I should replace all the ball joints, you mean the rears too? Is that where there's generally going to be more wear and tear, or the front?

    I just derusted and painted the rear suspension but didn't take anything apart, other than remove the calipers which were rusted seized and needed to be completely rebuilt.

    Should I go back and do it too, at least the BJs if not the bushings too? I'm willing even though it'll be a pain. Safety and performance come first.

    Finally, do I need a tool to press in new bushings, or just the BJ's?
     
    Last edited: Oct 10, 2020

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  4. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    Arh i see on the budget so money is an issue, gotta state that as no budget means your open to all suggestions and parts.

    Well if a set of shocks are around 100 each and then springs, bump stops and upper mounts your looking at a good price so not far off some megans which are about 750 from memory.

    Doing all the shocks will be best due to age and cycles of the units really but thats upto you and your budget again.

    Front arms are the worst affected as they do the most work. So tie rod ends and droplinks and lower arms would be good to swap out unless you have proof they are not that old anyway or a good brand thats trusted. If your swapping just a BJ then a tool is needed to press it out and back in again. Thats also if they come out as im not sure if they are replaceble on the 1G units.

    As many bushes you can replace within your budget i would do. Some are not going to be easy and it might take a proper shop to remove and install them if you struggle with it. But its wise to do what you can while your doing this maintenance
     

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  5. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Yeah I should have been clear that money's not an issue within a certain price range, not in an absolute sense, which basically means that I'm not looking to get the cheapest of everything, but good quality, just not high-end.

    And, I priced out getting new shocks, mounts and bellows at around $85 per side on the front, all KYB non-performance parts. Not sure about the rear but I'm guessing that it's more or less the same. So say around $400 for all 4. That's way less than $1000. Again, not looking to race or turn the car into a street performer, which I know is what this site is really all about (not judging, it's just not my thing).

    What I was really asking above was which of these parts really need to be replaced at this point in a 1G DSM's life. Sounds like pretty much all of them, except maybe the control arms, which seem solid and intact to me and only in need of derusting and paint. But I won't know for sure till I have them off the car.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  6. ec17pse

    ec17pse Freelancer

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    This site is about all setups and not just race cars. So are you looking to keep the stock springs and just changing the shocks and covers only?

    If any of the arms look good keeo using them and clean them up and just keep an eye on them for wear. If they move about when jacked up then they are worn and will need replacing of course. Best thing you can do is at least do as many poly bushes as you can as this greatly helps how the car feels ve old rubber
     

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  7. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Not sure what you mean by arms moving. Aren't they made of thick stamped and welded metal which could be bent under dynamic load (e.g. hitting pothole at speed) but not move under static load (beyond say flexing ever so slightly and not really noticeably)?

    Or are you referring to bushings or ball joints?

    And yes, I was hoping to keep the springs. They don't appear to be broken or fractured or bent out of shape. But do they compress enough over time to need replacement, even if they look fine?

    Finally, how hard is it to replace subframe bushings, i.e. the ones beyond control arms? I've read about horror stories in removing and replacing them, especially if you don't have access to a lift, which I don't.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  8. We're on Boost

    We're on Boost Proven Member

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    For the springs, if they aren't rusting on the surface, and if their free length measures close, I think they should be good still.
    I think that number of cycles is more important than number of years, although both count (fatigue and creep). But 7X,XXX miles is just not that much.
    Free length of the springs is given in tables in the factory manual. If you are going to have those things apart anyway, you could probably measure it.
    Here are shots of the spring charts. They even give the spring rate!
    1g DSM front suspension coil spring specs - from page 2-3 in the FSM.jpg

    1g DSM rear suspension coil spring specs - from page 17-16 in the FSM.jpg

    I think KYB shocks are really good quality and will last a long time.
    I have GR-2's on my 1990 Toyota Corolla (with stock original springs at 315,000 miles!) They have been on the car for the last 80,000 miles (since 2006) and still feel very good. I was surprised how much stiffer they made the handling and ride, since I had read that GR-2's on DSMs are only slightly stiffer than stock.
    I have AGX on my Talon, with H&R springs. Very stiff.
     

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  9. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Thanks. This is helpful. I assume that the coil spring dimensions above are when they're fully uncompressed, right? If so, can a typical spring compression tool completely uncompress them, and then recompress them for installation into the new strut? I don't want to be in a situation where I can't put it all back together again and have to take it to a shop.

    Also, given what you write, my stock struts might actually still be good, at least for my needs. But I need to replace them anyway due to some pretty bad rusting around the knuckle brackets. Not something you want snapping while driving on the highway. Hopefully I can still use the springs. They "look" ok, just some paint scuffed, no serious rust. I'd be replacing the mounts and bellows too.
     

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    1992 Eagle Talon TSi
    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  10. We're on Boost

    We're on Boost Proven Member

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    Yes, free length is when they are fully uncompressed, unrestrained. So yes you would need to do some research on what compression tool to have that would let you do that. I don't know what tool to recommend - I had mine done at an alignment shop that I happened to trust at the time, in Bellevue. Personally I wouldn't consider it a disaster if I had to take spring and strut to a shop to put it back together. But taking it apart, you want all the energy out of that spring before you let it loose, just as a matter of safety, of course.

    I'd be inclined to put new shocks on just for the sake of sharpening up the handling. But as far as how long the stock ones actually last, all I know about the 1g DSM is that my car had about 130,000 miles on it when I bought it and the shocks were completely shot! That was in 2004.

    Yeah it sounds like you could reuse your springs. I'm pretty sure if you measure the free length they will be a little shorter than the book value, but I bet they are ok. Sometimes the shop manuals will give a "Limit" or a "Service Limit" for measurements like that. But I don't see one given for the springs.
    The FSM does give some interesting Limits though. If you have a pdf version of the 1g FSM, you can go Edit, Find, and type Limit into the blank, and then step through the manual with the Next button and wow, they've got upper and lower limits for "starting torque" on the STABILIZER LINK BALL JOINT that you asked about before. They also give Damping Force numbers in pounds measured at 0.3 meters per second for the shock absorbers LOL!

    We have somewhere here, a pdf scanned version of the 1g DSM factory manual that was posted by Tim Zimmer (Twicks69). You should download that for sure if you don't have it already. It would take me a minute to find it but I could post a link to it later.
     

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  11. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    I have both the paper and PDF version of the 1G FSM so I'm good there. I think I know parts of it by heart by now. I took off both strut assemblies today--gingerly, as this is not something you want to drop and have explode on you. I'm definitely going to get new struts. They're not that much. I'll get new mounts and bellows with them too, but even then it's around $85 each, which isn't bad. Even if the piston itself still has some life in it, the brackets are rusted and unsafe IMO.

    I took off most of the front suspension already, except the stabilizer bar. I also took off the right CV axle, which was a pain because there was no obvious pry point as access is pretty tight there. I had to take off the gusset, which I was going to have to anyway to drop the trans. The left axle's going to be a bit harder because of the bracket and even tighter access. Looks like I'm going to have to take off the left center member to get to it, which I was going to anyway to get access to the transfer case and power steering pump, and to clean everything as there's a ton of grime and grit and all sorts of nasty stuff there.

    Getting the control arms off the subframe mount was a pain too, at least the front part. Very tight and not much access. But I got both off in the end. Now it's the center members, front cross member, steering rack, power steering pump, stabilizer bar, subframe, front exhaust pipe, propellor shaft, transfer case and trans. And lots more cleaning, derusting and painting. Then replacing the clutch, fixing a trans issue, installing new bushings, struts, ball joints and link connectors, and I should be good to go. Lots of work left to do, but once I'm done I should be good for years.
     
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2020

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    awd · manual · 1G DSM
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  12. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    Youre on the right track. Drivers axle is easy as its not clipped in. Once the carrier bearing is loose. There is nothing holding it in.
     

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  13. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    The FSM makes it look so easy, but when you try to get in the it's so tight, and even if I can get a socket or wrench on it there's not a lot of room to ratchet it or get good torque on it. Is it even possible to get it off without taking the left member off first?
     

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  14. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    The drivers side axle? The drivers side member doesn’t have to come off to remove the axle. Carrier bolts can be accessed through the bottom or top with a breaker bar. If you have the ac compressor, it might be impossible from above. I’ll have to take a look and there’s enough room to pull it out. Just have to rotate the carrier to fit through
     

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  15. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    You have to take it off anyway and its not supporting anything when static. 2 min. Take it off.
     

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  16. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Thanks. That was my concern, load. If no static load, it's coming off. I wanted to clean and paint it anyway. Is this the point where I first have to support the oil pan with a jack and wood block, or is that only when I'm about to drop the trans? I'd rather put that off until then if possible.

    Weird though that the FSM doesn't say this. As I wrote before, having worked with several cars' FSMs, there's a lot that's left out and implied, the idea being, I'm guessing, that an experienced mech will know what to do and these manuals are thick enough as it is without adding understood information.

    My car's fully loaded, everything but CD player and leather seats. ABS, sunroof, A/C. So, no top access unless I remove a bunch of parts and the A/C isn't one I want to mess with as the last time I ran the car it still worked after all these years and it's the old refrigerant that's nearly impossible to find.

    So, access only from below or the side, and neither works for me with the member still on. Per paulyman's response, I'm taking it off. I'm going to be taking the PS pump off too as it's really dirty and grimy, so that should make it easier too.

    Btw, different issue, once it's time to remove the old bushings, how hard is it? Do they really have to be burnt, drilled or pressed out, and if the latter, can it be done with a "press-out" tool akin to a wheel bearing or ball joint press tool, or do I need a hydraulic press? I have a bearing press kit (the Astro Pneumatic one, really nice) and will be loaning a ball joint press for the control arm BJs.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 12, 2020

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  17. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    You can access the carrier bolts between the left member and the downpipe. But those will be out of the way regardless.

    image.jpg image.jpg

    Axle out this hole. I don’t see anything that would hold up the axle coming out

    image.jpg image.jpg

    The bushings were easy to knock out. I used the fat end of a 1/2 inch extension and a hammer. I had to torch one because the bushing was seized on the stud off the frame, not in the subframe. If you have to torch one, just be cautious of what gets hot in that area and have an extinguisher or garden hose close by.
     

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  18. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Eh, you're just trying to show off your very clean and newly-painted underside front end. :thumb:

    Seriously, though, the issue wasn't removing the CV axle, but the 2 bolts that connect the carrier to the subframe. I'm sure that it's possible without removing anything else, but since so much has to be taken off anyway, might as well wait till they're off.

    Meanwhile, as prep, I took advantage of some moderate but stead rain today to remove 28 years of grease, grime and grit off parts of the underbody. It was so bad that I might not have been able to put a socket on some of the subframe and member nuts and bolts. The rain helped by washing away the residue after I hosed it all down (it's not my driveway so I have to be nice).

    Yet another task is going to be removing the rest of the nasty stuff that's still there that I won't be able to access until I remove all these parts, and maybe painting some of it for rust protection. I like knowing that the parts I usually can't see are in good and clean condition, even if it's just easthetics.

    As for the bushings, Autozone actually has a bushing removal kit as a loaner tool, so I might get one if I have issues getting them off. 28 year old rubber can be difficult.

    I keep adding tasks as I go, but it's all either necessary or highly advisable. And to think that I was just going to replace the clutch originally!
     

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  19. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    FYI The carrier bolts to the block, not the subframe. Get your elbow grease ready a looooong ride.
     

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  20. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    Interesting. I wonder how that affects the carrier bearing and axle given engine vibration.
     

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  21. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    It doesn't in my opinion. Axle is directly connected to trans and engine anyway. Ive had no problems other than normal wear and tear.
     

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  22. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    I removed most of the front suspension components over the past few days, taking advantage of several days of hard rain that delayed this to clean parts of the front underbody.

    Here's what I've taken out so far:

    Talon - Front Suspension.JPG
    They're dirty and rusty, which is to be expected, but not as bad as I'd thought it would be. Half a day with wire brush and abrasive wheel attachments, some scraping, maybe using a rotary tool for tough to reach spots, and degreaser, and they should all be ready to prime, paint and reuse.

    Well, except for the parts I'll replace, namely the bushings, ball joints, link connectors and strut assemblies other than the coils, which look good.

    Btw, the bushings still look good for the most part. They haven't dry rotted, hardened or torn, and I could probably reuse them after some cleaning. But should I, and even if they're fine, will ES bushings give me a noticeably better ride and handling?

    Also, there's the tiniest bit of play in the wheel bearings. It's not at all bad, maybe a fraction of a degree. Should I nevertheless consider replacing them, or wait until it's much more noticeable and I get that telltale roar or whine sound at highway speed? I have all the tools to do this myself, and have done it before. But I'd just as soon not add to my already long list of tasks and would prefer to put it off for another day.

    Otherwise, what's left is getting the steering rack off, the transfer case, and the subframe. Then it's on to the transmission and clutch, then everything goes back on and hopefully it all works great. Also have to flush and replace all the fluids, belts, filters, plugs and wires, and the PCV, but that's standard stuff. There's also the timing belt, but I'll try to get to that next month.

    What's the best way to drain the PS fluid, btw? There doesn't appear to be a drain plug.
     

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  23. TK's9d2TSi

    TK's9d2TSi Supporting Member

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    Change the wheel bearing while you have it apart. For the p/s fluid, there’s no drain. You’ll have to remove the pump, reservoir, cooler and all the lines if you want to drain everything.
     

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  24. pauleyman

    pauleyman DSM Wiseman

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    Put that front crossmember back in before you remove subframe. You will need the front motor mount in unless you have an alternate support method. I have a fender cradle but not everybody does.
    Otc 4324 is what i use
    4324_1443_0.jpg
     

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  25. XC92

    XC92 Proven Member

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    I don't have such a tool but could probably rent or borrow one. But, if the front crossmember is just as good at supporting the engine in front, I'll use that instead. It has to go back on eventually and doesn't really need to be off for any of the other things I need to do, as far as I can tell. Thanks for the reminder.

    The FSM doesn't address this, unfortunately. What happens if I don't do this, the motor starts pivoting forward or back, depending on its center of gravity? Or, it places excessive torque on the 2 side mounts, which may look ok but could damage them, the engine or frame?
     

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