Rear toe adjustment maxed out?

[99gst_racer]

I just had my 2G aligned today and they said they could not get my rear toe right. They told me it was adjusted all the way in, and my rear toe is still out 1.25* on the right, and .75* on the left.

I'm not wise in the way of suspension tuning, so I have a few questions.

1) What would explain why I'm out of adjustment?

2) How much of an affect can ride height have on available toe adjustment? If I were to raise the rear ride height say 1/2", would that allow me to adjust the toe in a bit more? And if so, how much?

3) Couldn't I just make a replacement lower arm with a suspension tube, heim, and a tie rod. That way I have the ability to push the front of the wheels inward a bit more. Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?

 

[99gst_racer]

3) Couldn't I just make a replacement lower arm with a suspension tube, heim, and a tie rod. That way I have the ability to push the front of the wheels inward a bit more. Is there a reason why this wouldn't work?

Ok, I just found a post that answers this question. http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/152122187-post45.html

The other two still stand though.

 

[Calan]

I'm no expert on the 2G's, but if the LCA's are similar to the 1G's you'll definitely want to go with a heim joint at the front subframe mounting point. My toe was maxed with similar issues, and then I installed the active toe eliminators (basically just a heim joint instead of the flexible rubber OEM crap). Besides having endless toe adjustment, the car handles like it's on rails now...it really is amazing.

The suspension height can affect your toe adjustability, but it's really hard to say how much or even in which direction. The amount of camber you run has a big effect on it as well.

I would definitely get with Kevin (greengoblin) on it. He has probably done more on custom 2G suspension stuff than anyone else I know of. Brian (snowborder714) may also have some insight into it, as I think he has done some similar work (or research) on his suspension.

 

[99gst_racer]

I'm just going to make my own adjustable arms (similar to what Kevin did). That way I can have more adjustment and never have to worry about seized eccentrics anymore.

A member of the Link forums said he thinks the early model and late model 2G's could have had different length toe arms. If that's true, that might explain why I'm running into this issue. My car is a '99, my entire rear end of from a '95 and my rear spindles are from a '98. But it all went together just fine, so who knows...

 

[Evilimports]

Your rear sub-frame may be bent, or possibly the unibody. I had a similar problem and replaced the sub-frame and had the body adjusted to make everything right.

 

[99gst_racer]

The only reason that I don't think anything is bent, is that the car has aligned well with this same subframe 2 summers ago - and I haven't done anything that could have caused anything to bend since then. My car has maybe seen 1500 miles since my last alignment, and I've done nothing abusive to the car that could have bent anything at all. It just sits in the garage mostly. BUT, I did have the rear knuckles apart this past weinter to replace the spindles, wheel bearings, and axles. Everything went back together business as usual, so I couldn't think of a reason why my toe would have changed or why it can't be further adjusted.

 

[housegsx]

Maybe someone did a hack job on the awd conversion.


Would adjustable trailing arms allow you to pull the wheels in?

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Building your own toe control arm is obviously the proper way to do it, but I wonder if this would offer further adjustablity or at least a quick temporary fix.

Edit: If it was fine before, maybe you just need some new bushings.

 

[99gst_racer]

Maybe someone did a hack job on the awd conversion.

Funny guy.

Would adjustable trailing arms allow you to pull the wheels in?

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Building your own toe control arm is obviously the proper way to do it, but I wonder if this would offer further adjustablity or at least a quick temporary fix.

I doubt that would work. I don't see how I could make adjustments at the front of the wheel if the rear arm is maxed out. I would think the toe arm is preventing any adjustment in the right direction at this point. Right?

Edit: If it was fine before, maybe you just need some new bushings.

Funny that you mention this. My old spindles had 15 year old factory rubber, and my new spindles have new urethane bushings all around.

 

[BoredDSM]

Wow, I honestly don't think anyone noticed that your specs are way out there. Spec for a car is usually as close to 0.00 as you can get. I don't remember the specs for a DSM but I will find out in work tommrow for you but I am positive 1.25 and .75 is way outta spec. To put it into perspective Honda specification for front and rear toe is 0.00 but anywhere from 0.00-0.03 is acceptable.

Being 1 total degree off would suggest incorrect setup when putting your car on the alignment rack or that the car was set for the wrong specs. I will get you a print out of the specs for the 95-96 and 97-99 tommorow of both front and all-wheel drive cars. Ask them for a print out if you can. From what I can remember I think the rear toe is adjustable through an eccentric cam bolt but I do not recall as I have never done the alignment on my car yet since I started working.

 

[Calan]

but I am positive 1.25 and .75 is way outta spec.

That's a good point. If those numbers are for toe, that seems whacked. I usually shoot for 0" of toe, +/- 1/16", as measured across the OD of the rims. But...I'm not sure what that would translate into degrees, and I'm too lazy to do the math right now.

IMHO, there really isn't ever a need for purposely running much toe, unless you're trying to eek out every last bit of turn-in potential (front toe) or straight line speed/stability (rear toe). I honestly don't think most DSM suspensions are precise enough to notice a difference in handling by adding 1/16" of toe, except on really well-set up race cars and by drivers that are really familiar with a course.

I may be wrong with that opinion...it's based on limited experimentation on my own cars and helping friends set up various cars in the past.

You'll definitely start noticing tire wear though if the toe is out more than 1/8" or so.

BTW - If you really want to be accurate in an alignment, it should be done with you (or an equivalent weight) in the car. You would be amazed at how much it will change, especially the camber. Just thought I'd mention that...

****

Just out of curiosity... how much negative camber are you running? As a quick fix, changing your camber by a degree or two may get you enough adjustment to get your toe in spec. Of the two, I would rather sacrifice some camber and achieve minimum toe to prevent excessive tire wear, as long as the camber doesn't go positive.

 

[BoredDSM]

Yea, it is very difficult to do much with just toe. With additional camber adjustment though it can make a world of a difference. Also if your car is lowered you have to adjust the camber till it is in spec before you adjust the toe. If your camber is off by 1 degree it throws off your toe directly and will make it harder to get into spec. If you have the camber kit you can find somone with an alignment rack and keep shimming it till camber is in spec then do toe. Most likely that is the cause of your toe problem.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

What are your rear camber settings?

 

[99gst_racer]

I'm not sure of my current camber specs. They forgot to give me my sheet and I forgot to ask for it. But I'm stopping back by there tomorrow morning to pick it up, so I'll let you guys know.

On a side note, I put together an adjustable toe arm today. My machinist buddy should have the heim spacers done by Friday.

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[SlowSpyder]

specs on the ball joint end please!!

 

[greengoblin]

Looks like a nice set up. Is that ball joint a perfect match to the taper and size on the knuckle. Also check and make sure that the arm will clear your crossmember in full compression.


Kevin

 

[99gst_racer]

specs on the ball joint end please!!

It's tire rod end made by Howe. Part number 23220.
Aluminum body, 3/4-16 RH thread, and it's rebuildable. It's basically a heim with a replaceable ball joint stud. Sweet little piece, but it was pricey as hell.

Looks like a nice set up. Is that ball joint a perfect match to the taper and size on the knuckle. Also check and make sure that the arm will clear your crossmember in full compression.


Kevin

It's a 7* taper, so I planned to ream the spindle like you did. Do you know what the factory taper is? I'll try to find time to mock it up tomorrow night to check clearances.

Could you go into a little more detail about the standoffs you made for your toe arms? It seems that when they're together, the diameter that passes through the heim is 1.430" long, but the heim bearing is only .875 wide. Wouldn't this cause the heim to loosely slide around?

 

[99gst_racer]

OK, I have the sheet in front of me now.

Right Rear: -1.4* camber, -0.32* toe
Left Rear: -1.0* camber, -1.24* toe.


I do remember that one eccentric assembly had to be replaced 2 summers ago, because it broke while they were trying to adjust it. I'm now leaning more toward the other eccentric being partially seized or otherwise non-functioning.

I'll have them play with the camber shims on the right rear to try to get it to -1.0*. And with these new toe arms, they shouldn't have a problem with getting it to 0* toe - hopefully.

 

[PieEyedPiper]

OK, I have the sheet in front of me now.

Right Rear: -1.4* camber, -0.32* toe
Left Rear: -1.0* camber, -1.24* toe.


I do remember that one eccentric assembly had to be replaced 2 summers ago, because it broke while they were trying to adjust it. I'm now leaning more toward the other eccentric being partially seized or otherwise non-functioning.

I'll have them play with the camber shims on the right rear to try to get it to -1.0*. And with these new toe arms, they shouldn't have a problem with getting it to 0* toe - hopefully.

After this post I believe your problem is a seized toe adjuster, as mentioned. Unless your car has been smacked, which we know it wasn't in the last 1500 miles, I'd expect your caber values to be awkward as well since they directly impact toe.

Your RR toe is high. Spec is about -.12 I like about half that. RL however, is obviously screwed beyond reason.

Your arms you're creating will be a great solution to this. Kind of a pain to ream the knuckle but that's not really so bad. How much is this setup going to run you, for comparison purposes to just cutting out the old gear and swapping in new parts?

 

[99gst_racer]

After this post I believe your problem is a seized toe adjuster, as mentioned. Unless your car has been smacked, which we know it wasn't in the last 1500 miles, I'd expect your caber values to be awkward as well since they directly impact toe.

Your RR toe is high. Spec is about -.12 I like about half that. RL however, is obviously screwed beyond reason.

Your arms you're creating will be a great solution to this. Kind of a pain to ream the knuckle but that's not really so bad. How much is this setup going to run you, for comparison purposes to just cutting out the old gear and swapping in new parts?

Yeah, I'm thinking it's a seized adjuster as well. The tech that did my alignment said both adjusters moved fine, but I don't think the RL one has it's full range anymore, and he probably didn't notice that.

Yeah, I'm a bit worried about reaming it too. I talked with a few roundy round racing co-workers of mine, and they say it's twice as difficult to do it with the knuckle on the car, but I'm going to try it anyway. I'd rather not remove it unless I have to. And damn - reamers aren't cheap either. But, I'm sure I'll need to use it again down the road, so I didn't mind buying one.

I think I have about $90 total in each arm (not including the heim bushings, or the reamer). I huge majority of that cost is in the Howe tie rods. I could have done it with a heim and stud and saved some money, but I really like the Howe piece, so I bit the bullet with that one. All in all, it would have been cheaper to replace everything with new factory stuff, but I feel that having a rigid arm with infinite adjustment was worth the difference in price.

I'm going to make another appointment to get the rearend adjusted sometime next week, so I'll let you guys know how it goes.

 

[greengoblin]

It's tire rod end made by Howe. Part number 23220.
Aluminum body, 3/4-16 RH thread, and it's rebuildable. It's basically a heim with a replaceable ball joint stud. Sweet little piece, but it was pricey as hell.


It's a 7* taper, so I planned to ream the spindle like you did. Do you know what the factory taper is? I'll try to find time to mock it up tomorrow night to check clearances.

Could you go into a little more detail about the standoffs you made for your toe arms? It seems that when they're together, the diameter that passes through the heim is 1.430" long, but the heim bearing is only .875 wide. Wouldn't this cause the heim to loosely slide around?

The heim I used is a high misalignment unit. It's 1.500 Inch across. Look at specs for W.
You can see that here:
Part Number PCYMR12T on QA1 Precision Products, Inc.

I pretty sure the factory spindle is 7 degrees. All the off the self stuff is just much larger. be very careful when you ream the hole. It's is VERY easy to go to big. Also use cutting fluid and do it Slow and do both to fit. I found my studs where a bit different on each side.

 

[99gst_racer]

The heim I used is a high misalignment unit. It's 1.500 Inch across. Look at specs for W.
You can see that here:
Part Number PCYMR12T on QA1 Precision Products, Inc.

I pretty sure the factory spindle is 7 degrees. All the off the self stuff is just much larger. be very careful when you ream the hole. It's is VERY easy to go to big. Also use cutting fluid and do it Slow and do both to fit. I found my studs where a bit different on each side.

Thanks for the info, Kevin.

Is a high misalignment heim nessacery for the inboard connection? The heims that I bought aren't high misalignment (I don't stock the QA1 part number that you used), but if high misalignment is nessacery, I'll special order them. I assumed that arm would extend outward perpendicular to the 12mm bolt that passes through the heim, and so a high misalignment heims wouldn't be needed. But, please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[greengoblin]

You should be fine. They where cheap and I just want to make sure it would work with out binding since this was all pretty much a test to see how it would work. FYI I ground down my aluminum x-member bushing some for added clearance. Also used the adjustable heim to taper adapter to allow even more clearance if ti's needed. I wish I could tell you more but my cars just hanging out in the air.

 

[99gst_racer]

I really did underestimate the clearance between the subframe bushing and the toe arm. I was measuring under my car tonight, and it looks like it's going to be really close. And I now realize the advantage to using a heim and a stud on the outboard connection. With this Howe piece, I only have about 1.500" from the bottom of the spindle to the centerline of the stud. That gives me roughly 1.500" clearance between the arm and the subframe at ride height. I'm pretty sure my suspension doesn't compress much more than that, but I'm going to grind away at the subframe mount anyway. I'm also going to trade in these 1.25" swedge tubes for the 1" versions. If it makes contact anyway, I'll end up using a heim and stud like you did.

 

[Calan]

Yeah, I'm thinking it's a seized adjuster as well. The tech that did my alignment said both adjusters moved fine, but I don't think the RL one has it's full range anymore, and he probably didn't notice that.

For future reference if someone comes across this...

On at least the 1G's (errr...at least on my 1G , the guide rings that the eccentric bolts ride in can break loose from the subframe, causing the bolt to work it's way underneath the ring and bind up. When I rebuilt my rear suspension, I found broken and bent rings on both sides of the subframe; but only one bolt had gotten to the point of binding.

Here's a pic showing one of the rings after I straightened it out and tacked it back into place. It was actually broken in half (where I re-welded it at the upper left), and the end was bent outward and sort of wrapped around the elliptical bolt flange.

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There is also some info on how I reconditioned the eccentric toe and camber bolts in the build blog if anyone is interested.

 

[99gst_racer]

Got the bushings on Saturday. They turned out nice. I also swapped out my swedge tubes to 1" diameter. That should help with clearances.

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