Pulled head for the first time. See Pics. Opinions please.

[TSIfreek]

I just got off the phone with the machine shop. They finished rebuilding the head. They said that the seals were in really bad shape.Is there anyway I can check the rings with the engine still in and the head taken off?[/QUOTE

Theres no way to check the ring sealing. If you got good #s on your compression test and were consistant from cylinder to cylinder than get the valve seals and guides, valve job done clean the tops of the pistons (spray gasket remover works really good for this) and thow it back together. Let us know how it turns out.

 

[tommiman]

clean the tops of the pistons (spray gasket remover works really good for this) and thow it back together.

Will this in any way swell the rings??? What should I use to clean the carbon up? Just a shop towel?

Just got the head back from the machine shop. Looks like new... Nice and shiny... Also, got some ARP head studs to go on...

I must have went to 10 stores looking for a 11x1.5mm tap but no one seems to sell them. I asked the guy at the machine shop and he said not to worry about tapping the head bolt holes. The head bolts did come out very clean though...

 

[Grn95GST]

I'd suggest checking this link out:

http://www.posracing.net/ARPstuds.html

It's informative regarding the install of head studs. Also the tap you need is 11x1.25, not 11x1.5 if that makes any difference.

Eddy

 

[TSIfreek]

Will this in any way swell the rings??? What should I use to clean the carbon up? Just a shop towel?

Just got the head back from the machine shop. Looks like new... Nice and shiny... Also, got some ARP head studs to go on...

I must have went to 10 stores looking for a 11x1.5mm tap but no one seems to sell them. I asked the guy at the machine shop and he said not to worry about tapping the head bolt holes. The head bolts did come out very clean though...

The rings are steel and the piston is aluminum. I found the gasket remover trick when I sprayed the deck surface with it and got some on the pistons. It lifts the carbon off the pistons into a thick watery substance and just wipe it off with a towel and repeat until the tops have no carbon on them. I recomend not using anything on the blocks surface besides a rasor blade to clean the old gasket off. Pay attention to the big oil passages in the center of the head and corners to keep crap out of them the coolant passages your dont really need to worry about. Use a shop vac if you do get anything in them to pull it out.
As far as the studs go thats a good link in the post above.
What you can do if the threads are not to rusty is use one of the old bolts with some regular oil on it and run it back and forth in the block a few times clean the bolt threads with a rag and repeat. Use a little oil just to cover the treads you dont want the oil sitting down in the block or the studs wont go in all the way.
I found it easyer intalling the studs with the head already on the block. On some of the holes you will have to install the washer first them the stud (it was like this on my 1g)
Use an allen key to bottom out the studs and turn it out 1/8 of a turn you want them in just hand tight.
Use the moly lube and torque them all 30 then 60 then 85
PM me if you have any ?s

 

[TSIfreek]

O and use this stuff in your oil to clean up the ring packs good stuff! http://www.auto-rx.com/index.html

 

[tommiman]

Here's a suggestion below from one of the new members on checking the rings with the head off. Let me know what you guys think.

I was reading your post. Unfortunately I don't have the permission to post on your thread yet. I have to have 25 posts and 10 reputation points. Whatever that is.

Anyways, the test I have done to see if the rings seal good enough in the block is to crank the engine till the pistons are at the same level for all 4. You could do it again at the top dead center too. What I do is, pour some oil in it to fill it just enough to cover the piston. Then let it sit overnight or 2 days to see if the oil leaked through.

That had proven a bad piston ring on my roomate's car for his smoking problem and my Galant's too. My #4 was bad. His acura #3 was bad.

You can go head post that on the thread for me and let anyone make opinions on that.

/QUOTE]


On another note does the block look ready to have the head installed?

 

[TSIfreek]

Block looks good. Use brake cleaner and a rag for the final step in cleaning the block and head surface. With the pistons as high as they can go use a shop vac around the outside of the pistons to get any of that carbon crap that is stuck between the pistons and cylinder wall spray wd 40 around them and suck it all out.
As far as that ring test every engine will hold oil like that I dont know were the thinking in that came from?? As the rings wear causing heat to them and they loose tension over time theres no way around that. Im sure your motor will be fine as long as the cylinders look go.
That auto RX stuff I gave you a link to cleans the ring packs to improve sealing and compression on older engines. Carbon builds up around the rings and causes them to loose there sealing and compression loss and oil consumpution occurs. Whos next??

 

[groundPork]

The compression test showed 170ish across the board... I actually had someone follow me to see if it smoked other than at idle... Apparently, when I floored it there would be a brief split second worth of black smoke.

With that... pretty good chance the rest of your engine'll last a few more miles... I would suggest a thurough leakdown test and/or a compression test immidiately after assemlby and after running for a half hour... as not only a starting point, but to know where you are after all that work. If it looks very bad, then you missed some thing else. Probably the rings. If it's good, then you've done all ytou could and you've gained a few more miles before the rings take a crap! hahah!

We all must keep in mind when offering advicee to other DSM owners... We are dealing with engines that potentially have 100,000 mi. on them. A whole hell of a lot of wear can be inflicted in that amount of mileage. what appears to the eye to be good looking (even wearing, not worn very much) does not at all represent whether or not the cylinder is an ideal working surface for the ring to ride on and seal. I am always for saving money... so I say...

Get the correct measuring tools (quality dial bore gauge and outside micrometer) and measure also read up on the process of boring and honing and engine rebuiling; talk to the guys at Total seal because the engineers are soem of the most open when it comes to spreading knowledge{especially when your spending money there} but never assume you know best because "this is your second motor"), and if you cannot then bite the bulelt and pay a seasoned pro to measure and check for you. Because if you don't then you might as well be closing your eyes and making that critical judgment call....

The more we measure and test, by the way... we learn a tremeandous amount, and that's no over statment.

 

[tommiman]

Alright so I put everything back together. Turned it on. It idles fine and there was no CEL but there was smoke coming from around the exhaust manifold and the valves were very loud. I checked the timing and everything was ok.

Any ideas?

 

[groundPork]

Alright so I put everything back together. Turned it on. It idles fine and there was no CEL but there was smoke coming from around the exhaust manifold and the valves were very loud. I checked the timing and everything was ok.

Any ideas?

Good Luck???

 

[TSIfreek]

Mine did the same thing when I first started it. The lifters need to get filled with engine oil before they stop taping usually 10- 15 min. The smoke form the exhaust is from possibly oil on the manifold or anti seize will do the same thing. Dont worry about it all sounds normal.

 

[tommiman]

Mine did the same thing when I first started it. The lifters need to get filled with engine oil before they stop taping usually 10- 15 min. The smoke form the exhaust is from possibly oil on the manifold or anti seize will do the same thing. Dont worry about it all sounds normal.

I really hope you're right. I hope I won't have to tear this thing down again. When I got the head back from the machine shop most of the top part of the head including the cams were covered with a black film of something. Is that the anti-seize you are talking about?

 

[TSIfreek]

I really hope you're right. I hope I won't have to tear this thing down again. When I got the head back from the machine shop most of the top part of the head including the cams were covered with a black film of something. Is that the anti-seize you are talking about?

What you are seeing as far as the black film may be a rust inhibitor or a anti wear spray of some type and that you wont see smoke from or maybe if they put it on the outside. The anti seize is the grey stuff you put on bolts to prevent them from seizing and easyer dissasembly. Just let it run awile it will go away. You have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge??

 

[tommiman]

What you are seeing as far as the black film may be a rust inhibitor or a anti wear spray of some type and that you wont see smoke from or maybe if they put it on the outside. The anti seize is the grey stuff you put on bolts to prevent them from seizing and easyer dissasembly. Just let it run awile it will go away. You have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge??

I don't have an aftermarket oil pressure gauge.

That black stuff was most likely assembly grease, which is really nice of your shop to do.

The noise from your lifters is more than definatly lifter tick, did you re-prime your oil before starting your motor?

What color is the smoke ?

I added the oil before putting on the valve cover by pouring the oil slightly over both cam shafts. I plugged the spark plug holes temporily with rags to prevent any oil of getting in there.

I don't remember the exact color of the smoke. I would say it was grey and sparse.

 

[tommiman]

no no no no no.
Did you pull your plug wires off, or disconnect your coil, or unplug the mpi fuse? Then use the starter till the dumby oil light went off ?

No??? I didn't do this? WTF Why did I have to do this? How do I fix it?

 

[tommiman]

Priming your motor is one of the few really important things I feel is necessary when any part of the oil system is removed, regardless of the part (even the oil filter).

If your motor was left in, and you didn't remove anything but the head, you might be in 'ok' shape, there is no real way for us to know the extent of any damage that may have occured untill later.

But it is definatly one of the reasons why your lifters tick'd when you started it up.

You had me worried there was a second. I only removed the head.

 

[TSIfreek]

Priming your motor is one of the few really important things I feel is necessary when any part of the oil system is removed, regardless of the part (even the oil filter).

If your motor was left in, and you didn't remove anything but the head, you might be in 'ok' shape, there is no real way for us to know the extent of any damage that may have occured untill later.

But it is definatly one of the reasons why your lifters tick'd when you started it up.

His lifters would still do this even though he did prime it. There is no damage done from lifter tap it will always happen no matter what you use to prime it.

 

[tommiman]

Alright so here's an update. The noise is not a problem. It is lifter tick. The problem is the smoke. After it warms up the smoke still comes up from under the exhaust manifold and more of this white smoke comes out of the tail pipe. Looks like I'm still burning water but at a more excessive pace then before! Did a compression test and all the cylinders are at about 178 except for number 2 which is around 160.

I used arp studs and torqued them to 70 ft-lbs. with moly lube.

Any suggestions?

 

[TSIfreek]

Check the plugs see if any are wet with coolant/water first. You maybe getting higher #s because theres water in the cylinders. Can you pin point were the smoke is coming from in the engine compartment (out an exhaust gasket maybe??? White smoke out the exhuast is not good. Tells me the head gasket is not sealing for some reason or you have other sever problems. Did the car ever over heat when you originally had this problem?? Was the head decked while at the shop? Im just hoping the block or head didnt crack.

 

[tommiman]

Check the plugs see if any are wet with coolant/water first. You maybe getting higher #s because theres water in the cylinders. Can you pin point were the smoke is coming from in the engine compartment (out an exhaust gasket maybe??? White smoke out the exhuast is not good. Tells me the head gasket is not sealing for some reason or you have other sever problems. Did the car ever over heat when you originally had this problem?? Was the head decked while at the shop? Im just hoping the block or head didnt crack.

Well the plugs aren't wet. If it was coming from the exhaust gasket then it would be smoking right from startup? I looked through the spark plug holes and all the piston tops looked the same. The car never overheated since I've owned it for the last 20000 miles. The smoking problem at idle appeared maybe 3000 miles ago.

One thing I forgot to mention was that when we were putting the rebuilt head back on as per the following link:

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=234689

we ended up scuggin parts of the newly mirror finished milled head. I didn't think it would be an issue and being impatient wanting to drive this thing around before the Canadian winter hit we put it back on. The scuffs weren't at all deep from the arp studs (In my opinion). We ended up taking the arp studs out putting the head on and then putting the arp stubs back in. This was because both manifolds were connected during installation.

Would changing the ARP torque from 70 ft-lbs. to 90 ft-lbs. like everyone has here maybe remedy the problem?

 

[TSIfreek]

I metioned before the studs go on last because of that problem with them hitting the deck surface when putting it on. The 2 big dowel alighnment pins in the block are all you need and are there to make sure the block and head are square to each other.
Well whats happening here to answer your question about why it only smokes when the engine is hot is because there is no pressure in the cooling system when the engine is cold and so it wont leak. When the engine gets up to temp the cooling system is pressureized and any leak of any kind the coolant will go out of weather it be a leaking hose, head gasket, cracked block or head etc the problem will be most noticeable when the engine is hot. And yes if it were in the exhaust it would smoke from the start due to high temps.
Its a good thing to hear the car never over heated and always had water so im sure the block and head are ok. Thing is though to to pop a head gasket the engine would eather be detionating or lack of coolant and increased coolant temp.
You have a lightly moded car with most likely boost around 12 psi or even stock so im really stumped on why and how the coolant is getting into the combustion chamber and how the gasket blew for sure???
At this point what I would do is buy buy a cooling system pressure tester so you can pressureize the sytem while the engine is cold and off. Pump 15 psi in it and see if it will hold if it does thats what you want. Let it sit for a coupple of minn and see how far it drops. After this I would pull the spark plugs out and discontect the MPI fuse and fuel pump fuse and crank the motor over and see if you get any liquid coming out of the cyliders while you crank it. If you get liquid theres your coolant.
If it comes to this point pull the head off again and check the gasket. Find a place that will pressure check the heads cooling system for a possible internal crack.
Clean the head and block surfaces real good with a razor blade and brake cleaner. Put the studs in last with an allen key finger tight and torque them 30 60 and finally 80 with the moly going back over each one twice. 70 should seal it fine but 80 is the # alot of us go by.

 

[TSIfreek]

Also what gasket are you using??

 

[tommiman]

I metioned before the studs go on last because of that problem with them hitting the deck surface when putting it on. The 2 big dowel alighnment pins in the block are all you need and are there to make sure the block and head are square to each other.
Well whats happening here to answer your question about why it only smokes when the engine is hot is because there is no pressure in the cooling system when the engine is cold and so it wont leak. When the engine gets up to temp the cooling system is pressureized and any leak of any kind the coolant will go out of weather it be a leaking hose, head gasket, cracked block or head etc the problem will be most noticeable when the engine is hot. And yes if it were in the exhaust it would smoke from the start due to high temps.
Its a good thing to hear the car never over heated and always had water so im sure the block and head are ok. Thing is though to to pop a head gasket the engine would eather be detionating or lack of coolant and increased coolant temp.
You have a lightly moded car with most likely boost around 12 psi or even stock so im really stumped on why and how the coolant is getting into the combustion chamber and how the gasket blew for sure???
At this point what I would do is buy buy a cooling system pressure tester so you can pressureize the sytem while the engine is cold and off. Pump 15 psi in it and see if it will hold if it does thats what you want. Let it sit for a coupple of minn and see how far it drops. After this I would pull the spark plugs out and discontect the MPI fuse and fuel pump fuse and crank the motor over and see if you get any liquid coming out of the cyliders while you crank it. If you get liquid theres your coolant.
If it comes to this point pull the head off again and check the gasket. Find a place that will pressure check the heads cooling system for a possible internal crack.
Clean the head and block surfaces real good with a razor blade and brake cleaner. Put the studs in last with an allen key finger tight and torque them 30 60 and finally 80 with the moly going back over each one twice. 70 should seal it fine but 80 is the # alot of us go by.

Thanks for the advice. I'll give it a try.

Also what gasket are you using??

OEM Mitsu gasket from the dealer.

 

[tommiman]

Just torqued the studs up to 85 ft-lbs but it didn't help. Still spews clouds of thicks white smoke, especially, when it hits operating temp.

Have a look at the old head gasket. Does any spot look suspicious to cause a leak?

 

[tommiman]

To me, that gasket looks like it wasn't leaking at all.

Did you use a oem composite or mls for replacement ?

Yeah that's what I thought too. I just lifted it off the block with little sticking. I replaced it with the exact same OEM factory one from the Mitsu dealer.