Project: EFI SWAP What do I need to make it work?

[NineThrityONE]

Ok well I hooked up everything in the engine bay, turned on the fuel pump and cranked... Nothing :-(
looks like no spark and no fuel. Im not sure how to tell if the system is on.
I dont have an o2 yet, but I dont think that would prevent start?

 

[NineThrityONE]

Ok I think I have eveything hooked up, and still no go.

I read this post : https://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/1g-basic-ecu-mpi-relay-circuit-function.435961/#post-153354600

"Shortly after battery voltage shows up on ECU pins 102 and 107 the reset circuit in the ECU wakes the ECU up and if it boots up successfully you'll get a heartbeat on ECU pin 1, the CEL will come on for about 5 seconds and then turn off, the boost gauge will display 0 (Stock ECU software on turbo cars) and the ISC on the throttle body will move in and out to rehome."

I have given power to pin 110 and 103
If i short Pin 8 on the MPI (BLACK/blue wire) I hear the relay click (but not with out grounding) and the ISC activate.
ONLY THEN, do i have power on the red wires.....But still no ignition

 

[steve]

As mentioned you need fused but unswitched 12v from the battery to ECU pin 103. This is the backup power for maintaining the contents for the RAM and to power the circuit that drives the MPI Relay.

You need another fused but unswitched 12v going to MPI relay pin 10. This is the source of power for every thing on the MPI circuit.

You need switched 12v to signal the ECU that the ignition is on going to ECU pin 110. You can consider this the master power switch. It should also send power to the Ignition Coils, Fuel Pump relay (inside MPI relay), and Starter Solenoid.

When the ECU sees 12v on pin 110 it should pull pins 63 and 66 to ground which in turn activates the coil (pin 8) in the MPI relay (or a regular) Bosch 12v relay and causes the relay to switch the power from pin 10 to pins 4 and 5 and from them to ECU pins 102 and 107.

You are seeing (hearing) the relay when you force a ground but not by itself. Either you don't have the backup power working, a disconnect from ECU pins 63 and 66 to MPI pin 8, or you have blown the transistor that pulls the pins low, which can happen if you miswire the MPI relay. Any case that's not the final issue.

When you get 12v to pins 102 and 107 the ECU should power up, the wiring for the MPI circuit should also be powering up the MAF, CAS, ISC, Injectors, O2 sensor heater, and the Boost Control, Purge Control, EGR Control and Fuel Pressure Solenoids.

You also need a fused momentary switched 12v for the starter, this should run to ECU pin 108 and to the starter solenoid. This can be fed from the ignition switch since it must be on first.

It's important that the MPI power not be switched, the ECU does some housekeeping after you turn the ignition switch off before it deactivates the MPI relay and turns it's power off.

 

[NineThrityONE]

arghhhh, ive triple checked everything you said, and its not going, was suspecting the ECU is bad:
what do you think?

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[steve]

Yes, you need to get that capacitor leakage fixed and also have them check the driver for the MPI relay.
Look to see if the capacitor closer to the white connector is also leaking, corrosion there can also open the circuit traces around it and under the heatsink causing issues like your seeing.

The best repair service available is from ECMTuning.

 

[NineThrityONE]

SO I got a DSMLink now (v2) and looks like it works, sort of. Hooked it up and the relays clicked! yay.
I turned the fuel on, and cranked, got a couple puffs but no start. Try again, same thing. However I got a couple revolutions where the cranking came to a slow. At first I thought "oh its just building compression", but now I don't think so (as that never happened with the stock engine).
More cranking with a jumper box for max power, got one big backfire.
So at least I'm getting fuel and spark; I'm thinking the "slowing of the cranking" was the engine trying to fire on the upstroke.

Any thoughts?? I think I'm close.

Oh also the guy I got the DSMLink from said it was on his race car with 1600 injectors. I think I reset that.

 

[NineThrityONE]

Thinking about it... maybe I set the timing 180* off? I lined up the notches on the CAS and set #1 to TDC
BTW heres a pic of the distributor to CAS adapter I made (CAS mount not on that pic)

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[NineThrityONE]

Dang, I checked the plug wire orientation/firing order, that seems to be correct. set Cyl 1 at TDC and this is where the CAS is set currently

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[steve]

Can you verify that the CAS disk turns in the correct direction?

 

[NineThrityONE]

Can you verify that the CAS disk turns in the correct direction?

interesting question, relative to that picture, it rotates Clockwise

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[steve]

I haven't though it all through but the arrow makes me ask the question. On a DSM the CAS is mounted on the rear of the intake cam and since the front of the cam turns clockwise my brain wants to say the CAS spins counter like the arrow shows. But I could just as easily be having a senior moment.

 

[NineThrityONE]

I haven't though it all through but the arrow makes me ask the question. On a DSM the CAS is mounted on the rear of the intake cam and since the front of the cam turns clockwise my brain wants to say the CAS spins counter like the arrow shows. But I could just as easily be having a senior moment.

OYYYYY, you might be right.....shit. if that is the case..... then what?

 

[steve]

I've tried to think this through before and just wound up with a headache, my gut suggests marking the disk and then unscrew it and flip it over.

 

[NineThrityONE]

I've tried to think this through before and just wound up with a headache, my gut suggests marking the disk and then unscrew it and flip it over.

Well, correct me if im wrong... but wouldnt it be that I have to flip over (theoretically ) the sensor? because if I flip the disc over, then the disc would still be spinning the wrong direction? unless it was a perfect "mirror image"

 

[NineThrityONE]

Whewww. making progress I think??
I modified the CAS, flipped the disk and sensor over, luckily it was basically mirrored. (had to machine some spacers and other adjustments) So now it should be rotating in the proper direction. And the timing should still be in the ball park +/- a couple Deg*

The injectors im currently using are Bosch, with apparently 268cc/min, ( the came off a vw 1.8T, I figured close enough to get it running) I thought this might be too low, and the Calculator on ECMlink said it needed a 39% increase. The max setting was 30%. and the deadtime was 525 (could i maybe up the pressure?)

Now when I went to try the "modified CAS" I did not adjust the ECU settings.
I got it started but the car sort of just barely ran, didnt stay running (probably only a couple hundred RPM). But if I gave it half+ throttle, it would almost stay running, just barely.

SO I changed the fuel settings back to 0 on the fuel and 330 dead time. Try again. Seems worse and kind of almost back firing.

any thoughts?

 

[steve]

I'm not sure I would have flipped the sensor to start with, just the disk to see how that worked.

In a 1G ECU ECMLink Baseline for the injectors is 450cc running with 36.3psi base fuel pressure. That works out to about 411cc as the injector value. I haven't tried using positive values in the Fuel tab Global fuel parameter when the injectors are smaller than the baseline. We usually need larger injectors.

There is a factory deadtime/voltage map in what ECMTuning calls the Direct access InjBatteryAdj. Changed made with the Fuel tab Global deadtime are added to the interpolated value in the InjBatteryAdj map.

Then there is the airflow side to consider, How are you measuring it?

 

[NineThrityONE]

I'm not sure I would have flipped the sensor to start with, just the disk to see how that worked.

In a 1G ECU ECMLink Baseline for the injectors is 450cc running with 36.3psi base fuel pressure. That works out to about 411cc as the injector value. I haven't tried using positive values in the Fuel tab Global fuel parameter when the injectors are smaller than the baseline. We usually need larger injectors.

There is a factory deadtime/voltage map in what ECMTuning calls the Direct access InjBatteryAdj. Changed made with the Fuel tab Global deadtime are added to the interpolated value in the InjBatteryAdj map.

Then there is the airflow side to consider, How are you measuring it?

Well, I figure if I flip both the sensor and the disc, it will be just like it is on the 4g63, so I eliminate that from the equation.
heres a pic

Now I tried it again, but this time I rotated the CAS a couple different angles.....

BREAKING NEWS!!! I just thought about this, I built a new set of plug wires...and it was sort of bugging me in the back of my mind, are they seated on the plugs?(because it was very hard to get the wires through the boots) I checked several times, But Just now I thought let me check the Coil side, and I was able to push the wire deeper into the Coil.... So theres a posibility it was not firing on all 4....or 3.... or 2.....???

Cant try again till day time (live in apt, don't think the neighbors appreciate a good back fire!)

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[NineThrityONE]

DAMN IT!!!
So I went ahead and ordered the proper injectors (630cc) reset the setting, gave a global fuel of -27% and dead time of 325.
And, no significant change :-(
I dont think that was the answer, but I hope that removed that from contributing factors.

So on a whim, I reversed the order of the wires on the injectors,
From
1234 to 4321, THAT seemed to help a little.
At one point I got it to barely run with WOT.
Other times it would kind of run with the starter.
I tried multiple timing positions, rotating the CAS between +/- 20deg,

I just dont get what im missing?

 

[NineThrityONE]

YAYYYYYY, It started and RAN on it's own....Just barely!
after rearranging the plug wires, it actually started, but just barely.
It would idle, just. sometimes the engine would almost die, but then pick back up (dont have the Rpm gauge hooked up yet)
it wouldnt rev, if i tried to open the throttle it would die. but if I just slightly cracked the throttle, it would gain a couple hundred revs for a second then go back to just above "about to die"
I tried rotating the CAS up to 15deg, that made little change.

Now I did get it to run long enough to start to warm up, and got a Wideband O2 reading. and it was showing about 10.4, obviously quite rich. I did adjust the FPR pressure, (started at 43psi) between as low as 20 and up to 50psi, no change.

I had installed the 630cc bosch injectors, using -33% global setting and 325 dead time.

Oh also currently I don't have a regular O2 sensor installed.
Any thoughts??
thanks again

 

[NineThrityONE]

Hmmm, looking back, remembering that I reversed the Injector order, would that make much difference? or are they batch fire?

 

[NineThrityONE]

Making progress!

I remembered about the Coolant Temp Sensor and that it would be really rich with out it, so I went and checked and it was disconnected! That connector doesn't hold on very tight! So I plugged it back in and was able to start and Rev it! Yay!! Almost seemed like it was running for real this time!!!
BUT, it wouldn't idle, so I had to hold the gas pedal but more than that, was that even though it would rev, where ever I reved it to, it would get there, then almost die, then try to come back. So I had to keep moving the pedal to keep it running. WTF? I couldn't get steady AFR, would go from 15ish to full red, then id move the pedal and constantly do that.

Could someone give me some clues on this one? maybe some setting in ECMLink?

Also I just got the O2 sensor in but haven't installed yet

 

[NineThrityONE]

Does anyone have any ideas on the Reving/not holding RPM?

 

[NineThrityONE]

Well after getting the car sort of running, I can't figure why I have to keep moving the throttle to keep it running. So I wired in the ECMLink so I could do the live monitoring.

Now before I tried to start the car, I just turn the system on, and checked the TPS, and it looked basically ok, could see both the V and % go up as I opened the throttle. THEN I start the car and as I'm moving the throttle the % is staying almost Zero, and the V never got above 1 (it moved very slightly)

WTF?

So what is going on? I'm guessing this is the root of my problem!

I just did get a new TPS, (I plugged it in, to test, but not installed as I have to remove the throttle to install).

 

[BLACK'98DSM]

Can you post a log?

 

[steve]

A log would be helpful, you can post them just like pictures. A picture of your throttle body and a description of how you wired the TPS would also be useful. It's sounds like the power to drive the TPS voltage divider is going away when you start the car.