Precision (PTE) Ball Bearing Turbos, What do you guys think?

[jm1080]

well i will be buying a turbo soon because I have a deal So Im looking for a dual ball bearing turbo for the faster response. Ive been looking through many turbos and have narrowed it down to PTE Dual Ball Bearing Turbos with Mitsu Housing. I tried searching, but I found nothing regarding PTE BB Turbos. Now I looked at:

Ball Bearing - Modern Automotive Performance

And as you can see there is the GT3076R which is more expensive and then their are the SCM34R series DBB which is cheaper and the other SCM series which are the same price. Now what Im a bit confused about is, I plan on keeping my car for a long time so that is why Im deciding on just getting a big turbo instead of upgrading so many times. Now first of all are these reliable turbos? Also why are prices the same for the different trim sizes...Which is why I dont know which to choose, I originally had in mind the 50trim dbb which is SCM50R, but now Im starting to think I should get something a bit bigger since it is DBB such as the SCM34R Series

What do you guys think? Im so confused!!! Thanks guys

 

[ontario AWD]

I loved my scm 3231r.Pulled wicked above 400rpm.My only suggestion if you go that route is to ditch the mitsu hotside idea and go with a t3/t4,you wont regret it. Divided with external wastegate would be a good setup.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Good luck finding a Divided t3 manifold for a dsm AT least for less then left nut price $900+ last time I was looking
Not that it's not a good Idea or anything.....

 

[dsm-onster]

well i will be buying a turbo soon because I have a deal So Im looking for a dual ball bearing turbo for the faster response. Ive been looking through many turbos and have narrowed it down to PTE Dual Ball Bearing Turbos with Mitsu Housing. I tried searching, but I found nothing regarding PTE BB Turbos. Now I looked at:

Ball Bearing - Modern Automotive Performance

And as you can see there is the GT3076R which is more expensive and then their are the SCM34R series DBB which is cheaper and the other SCM series which are the same price. Now what Im a bit confused about is, I plan on keeping my car for a long time so that is why Im deciding on just getting a big turbo instead of upgrading so many times. Now first of all are these reliable turbos? Also why are prices the same for the different trim sizes...Which is why I dont know which to choose, I originally had in mind the 50trim dbb which is SCM50R, but now Im starting to think I should get something a bit bigger since it is DBB such as the SCM34R Series

What do you guys think? Im so confused!!! Thanks guys

Why would a turbo cost more because it has a different trim size???? What are your hp or race or street goals? we can help you better if state that.

 

[hypnoticpimp]

My next turbo will also be DBB 50 trim... I have thought about PTE DBB 50 trim as well but I figured the fp 3150 DBB 50 trim is the way to go. Although there are only 2 threads on the fp 3150, they both convinced me that the fp 3150 is a superior design although it does cost a bit more... The fp 3150 is for sure my next turbo...

 

[JusMX141]

....first of all are these reliable turbos?

Hopefully more reliable than PTE's journal bearing variety. If not, you might want to buy three or four.

 

[JusMX141]

I'm sure if you can come up with some neg. personal exp. about Garrett BB turbo's The Op would be interested in listening about it.

I don't have any first-hand experience with Garrett Ball-Bearing turbos, except for one SBR GT13 that failed prematurely due to an engine that sustained rod bearing failure. Watching one of my good buddies flush an 8-month-old $1300 turbo down the toilet allowed me to make up my mind that Ball-Bearing turbos are far too fragile for the average DSMer on the average DSMer budget.

Not to knock anyone that has a Ball-Bearing turbo on their car....I believe they're practically required for a car that's race-only, and they work great for someone that has pockets deep enough to run one on a daily driver. However, seeing the impact that the Borg and Holset journal bearing turbos have made on the DSM turbo market, I believe that Garrett journal bearing turbos are on their way out unless they do something to drastically step up their game. Garrett attempted to make the "GT" journal bearing turbos the next big thing, but they flopped due to a weak thrust plate design. About the only thing Garrett has on their side right now is their GT Ball Bearing turbo line.

I understand that a Ball-Bearing turbo offers a little quicker spool and better transient boost if you're a slow shifter, but once you're making full boost they practically mimick what a journal bearing turbo can do for far less money.

Since you're the authority on Ball-Bearing turbos, what exactly led you to purchase yours in the beginning? How does it compare to other journal-bearing turbos you've used? Which route would you go if your Ball Bearing turbo blew up tomorrow?

 

[jm1080]

Thanks for responses, well I wanted mitsu housing because it is easier and less expensive. Would it really make that much of a difference hp wise if it were T3/T4?

Also my goals are 350-anything possible . I will be keeping my car for a long time hopefully And I just didnt want to keep upgrading turbo after turbo, when I can just stick to one and then upgrade later on everything else. It is my daily driver though. Im taking it step at a time for now.

Also reason I would buy Borg or Holset but they are so damn expensive and reason why Im choosing PTE is because I can choose any of the listed turbos for real cheap brand new, that is why Im having trouble deciding which over which, and which is more reliable, etc.

From what Ive read the new PTE SCM series which is dbb is supposedly better than their journal bearings that I have read have had so many problems. And the very few who have those say they are great turbos, but I would also like to hear others experiences as well.

 

[KazooGS-T]

Holsets are really cheap. You can get a used one, have it rebuilt and balanced for under $500 TOTAL; and it will have a similar spool if not lower than the turbos you are looking at.

 

[MY1GDSM]

Ok your post and mine was deleted SO...
I never said I'm the "authority" on ball bearing turbo's Be every time I say Anything about A Garrett BB turbo You chime in about a Stnd. bearing One?
What is You point? Your not contributing anything to this thread buy saying to "you better buy 3 if there any thing like the journal bearing turbos" the OP already said"
"Ive been looking through many turbos and have narrowed it down to PTE Dual Ball Bearing Turbos with Mitsu Housing."
You said your self that,
"I don't have any first-hand experience with Garrett Ball-Bearing turbos"
So why are you sayin anything about them?

 

[JusMX141]

Thanks for responses, well I wanted mitsu housing because it is easier and less expensive. Would it really make that much of a difference hp wise if it were T3/T4?

Also my goals are 350-anything possible . I will be keeping my car for a long time hopefully And I just didnt want to keep upgrading turbo after turbo, when I can just stick to one and then upgrade later on everything else. It is my daily driver though. Im taking it step at a time for now.

Also reason I would buy Borg or Holset but they are so damn expensive and reason why Im choosing PTE is because I can choose any of the listed turbos for real cheap brand new, that is why Im having trouble deciding which over which, and which is more reliable, etc.

The T3-flanged turbine housings flow much better on top end.....so much more, it's ridiculous. A buddy of mine was running a DSM bolt-on housing on his PTE 6031E (may that turbo rest in peace). At 30ish psi, he COULD NOT achieve more than 48lb/min of airflow. This was partially due to the large compressor / small turbine imbalance, but the DSM housing was a huge bottleneck. He switched to a .82 a/r T3 housing and lost 300rpm or so of spool time, but flow went from 48lb/min up to 55lb/min with just the housing swap and a Turbonetics cast manifold.

It's important to not choose a turbo with a huge compressor wheel that will "stuff" air into the turbine housing. Balance is key....don't overdo it!

Contrarily, I've found Holsets to be an absoulute BARGAIN. Take a $300 HX40 cartridge and drop it into a $200 Bullseye turbine housing, and you have a turbo capable of outspooling and outflowing a GT35R....what's not to want!

 

[MY1GDSM]

What was the AR of the bolt on housing?

 

[1gDSM4g63]

Thanks for responses, well I wanted mitsu housing because it is easier and less expensive. Would it really make that much of a difference hp wise if it were T3/T4?

A T3/T4 spools later and base on your profile, you're pretty far from going to a T3/T4.

Also my goals are 350-anything possible .

If you're only shooting for 350hp is 16g will get you to that.

Also reason I would buy Borg or Holset but they are so damn expensive and reason why Im choosing PTE is because I can choose any of the listed turbos for real cheap brand new, that is why Im having trouble deciding which over which, and which is more reliable, etc.

BEP Holset HX40 and BEP BW S256 are nearly the same price or even cheaper than the PTE SCM and if you really want to go cheap you can find used Holset.

 

[JusMX141]

What was the AR of the bolt on housing?

Whatever the advertised a/r of a Precision DSM Bolt-on housing is (possibly .63?)....it wasn't cast into the housing I removed. It was a standard PTE SCM housing for a T31 turbine....uncentered volute design:

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The T3 .82a/r replacement was a full centered volute design:

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[MY1GDSM]

So a t3 .82 Ar hotside Vs. a Mitsu .48 or .63 AR hotside
I would like to See a T3 .63 vs Mitsu .63 to see what you would realy gain...
Of course its gonna flow more...but how much more....?

 

[JusMX141]

Yeah I wanted to see him go for the T3/.63 housing but either choice was going to cost almost $300 by the time it arrived at his house, so he wanted to make sure he bought it once and didn't have any regrets.

The .82 a/r housing was so large it required a spacer between the Turbonetics manifold and the head to keep the housing from hitting the balance shaft tube on the engine block.

As I said before, with no changes in the boost level the car immediately felt like it had a completely different powerband with the T3 housing over the DSM housing. It revved smoother when it got into the powerband, almost like a streetbike. The car had a pull from 5000-8000 that wasn't there with the DSM housing. It was a good choice, but unfortunately that turbo decided to puke it's guts for a third time....and this time was a doozy. He's looking into a HX40 / Bullseye T3 turbine housing for next season!

 

[MY1GDSM]

A buddy of mine was running a DSM bolt-on housing on his PTE 6031E At 30ish psi, he COULD NOT achieve more than 48lb/min of airflow.

Thats Odd I've logged 48lb/min @ 26psi on my scm5031re....

 

[JusMX141]

What size is your throttle body? I think he was still using the 2G draw-thru MAS, along with the 2G throttle body elbow and throttle body (52mm, barely over 2") and a stock 1G intake manifold at the time the 48 lb/min was logged. Of course, you're still using stock cams, and he has 280's in his car....so who knows.

 

[MY1GDSM]

What size is your throttle body? I think he was still using the 2G draw-thru MAS, along with the 2G throttle body elbow and throttle body (60mm, just above 2.25") and a stock 1G intake manifold at the time the 48 lb/min was logged. Of course, you're still using stock cams, and he has 280's in his car....so who knows.

It a 60mm 1g TB (the Stock 2g's are 52mm) with a 2 TB elbow(unported) and yes stock cams.....

 

[JusMX141]

Yeah I caught myself and corrected my post before after you quoted it.

So you're using a tiny 2G throttle body elbow, too? Hmmm beats me...unless the blow-thru MAS really adds that much flow potential.

 

[VETTE_50_TH]

A T3 is recommended for any big HP cars, the DSM flange will slow you down at some point, but there are so many factors you cant say what one setup will be like compared to anothers.

To the OP, i think you are set it your ways a little to much. As already stated, a BB turbo will do what you are looking for, but its probably going to cost you more. A 16g or 18g or even 20g would probably be a better choice for what your goals are.

James

 

[MY1GDSM]

I agree But I wonder if the price of converting to a t3 setup (say scm5031re to sc5031re) would realy be worth the money for the gains you would see. I beleave there's a thread where someone switched over to a t3 setup to see, I'll have to see if I can find it again

 

[JusMX141]

Here's a thread by a local DSMer in my area that was contemplating doing the same swap. There hasn't been any followup....perhaps you could PM him and see if he went through with the housing swap or not.

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/turbo-system-tech/307169-can-i-swap-garett-turbine-housing.html

 

[dsm-onster]

Yeah I caught myself and corrected my post before after you quoted it.

So you're using a tiny 2G throttle body elbow, too? Hmmm beats me...unless the blow-thru MAS really adds that much flow potential.

It adds that much mis-calibration . I uses a 2g maf with my last setup and swapped to a drawthrough maft. The a/f curve remained pretty much the same falling to 10.5:1 by 6K and staying there to redline. I switched it to blow through and it ran me to 9:1 or richer. My airflow number went up . But fortunately I have dsmlink and recalibrated. I used the BEP bolton housing with the t31 turbine wheel with that same 6031 compressor (60-1 ecover) and I couldn't get over 52 lb/min at 32psi. I basically had an scm6031 with the bep housing which doesn't appear to be smaller than the .63 bolton PTE housing and has a better volute design.

My take on the bolton stuff. . .

The bolton .63 PTE housing has a huge problem. It is smaller than what the garrett wheels need for flow. It also does not have a centered volute. Even a BEP bolton housing has a centered volute which even appears to be slightly larger than the PTE bolton housing in area at the same point on the scroll.

Being that there is the fp race manifold and other good exhaust manifolds with the dsm flange, then the dsm flange setup is not inherently prone to flowing less, IF you have a turbine housing with a good design and of proper size. Yes, most bolton turbine housings lack for proper sizing when matching to a garrett turbine wheel. Apparently, a garrett turbine wheel needs a larger area volute to flow well. Hence, the FP turbine housing. The td06h turbine wheel on the other hand works fine in a turbine housing with smaller volute area than a .48 a/r garrett. The hx40 turbine wheel works fine with turbine housing with a volute area smaller than a .63 a/r turbine housing. It's GARRETTS that need GARRETT parts. MHI stuff works good with MHI flanged MHI housings. The hx40 typically comes with a 19cm^2 turbine housing, of which each volute is the certered design and is about the same area as the BEP centered volute turbine housing. So, coincidentally the BEP turbine housing works well with the hx40 turbine wheel. Many h1c turbos have the 18.5cm^2 turbine housing, which is identical in area to the 19cm^2 turbine housing. That volute area works well with the hx35, which has the same turbine wheel as the h1c.

 

[prostreetdsmx1]

We have used these turbos for as long as I've been in this business (5 years) and have had 4 failures. That is minimal at best when you look at volume and the level of use. They are excellent products with good support.