Off time by two teeth for two months at least.

[Kalisko]

So this local shop that I've had nothing but issues with, who claim to be "Awesome performance shop" nonsense, recently "Fixed" a vibration in my vehicle.

Engine History: 6-bolt swap out of a galant vr-4 ( I think it was a 1990.)
**Was rebuilt by this shop, but they put on a crappy head that looked like it came out of a junkyard.

The engine had a horrible vibration which I could not figure out what was.
They supposedly fixed it by replacing my "Balance shaft belt."
So, when i get the car back, after they fixed this vibration, it idled pretty choppy.
It immediately sounded like it was off time, and I insisted it was looked at before leaving.
The tech there said that it was just cold, blah blah blah.

Well, I arranged to bring it back up and have them double check to make sure everything was fine and dandy,which I did.
The thing i found odd, was the shop did not allow me to pull the timing cover off, and check timing with me. So we basically got nowhere after looking over everything from vacuum leaks to pulling my ECU to make sure it was ok.

Well eventually I left. So I drove the car around normally the past 2 months, and got fed up and met up with an old friend who is now a pretty good mechanic, graduated with honors from Lincoln tech in indianapolis. So, we get to looking and he showed me how to put it in TDC (Top dead center) and check the cam gears. Well, the intake cam lined up perfect, and the exhaust cam was off by two teeth. I think it was advanced (It was off two teeth going counter-clockwise, or in other words two teeth above the head level.)

So he helped me put it back in time, we rotated it to make sure it didn't skip a tooth while being grooved back in, everything checked out good.

I then started the vehicle and now the vibration is BACK. I can hear a very small knock noise coming from the #4 cylinder area, intake side, and around 3,000RPMs and above the engine vibrates horrendously.

I am going to do a compression test tomorrow and possibly a leakdown test, but I'm now worried about my internals. Would running the motor off time by two teeth this whole time caused damage? I know it could have bent some valves, but I'm not sure how bad it could be. I'll update later on this evening when I get home and If i have bad compression in a cylinder I'll probably go ahead and pop off my head to see the extent of the damages.


I'm sorry if this is a long article/thread, I just like to be very in depth relaying the most information possible to you guys.

Thanks,

Will

 

[Teflon]

I bent 1 cylinders valves running 1 tooth off for about 10 minutes. I guess it is kind of case-specific on the amount of damage it causes, if any. You might luck out.

 

[diambo4life]

Two teeth is not enough to cause valve piston interference. If you still have your balance shafts, make sure they are in phase with your crankshaft.

 

[Kalisko]

The wierd thing is, my car didn't vibrate when it was off time. would that be a symptom of out of phase shafts?

 

[toofast82]

So he helped me put it back in time, we rotated it to make sure it didn't skip a tooth while being grooved back in, everything checked out good.

Care to elaborate on the procedure when you did this. It sounds like you moved the cam gear with everything still assembled?

Would running the motor off time by two teeth this whole time caused damage? I know it could have bent some valves, but I'm not sure how bad it could be. I'll update later on this evening when I get home and If i have bad compression in a cylinder I'll probably go ahead and pop off my head to see the extent of the damages.

Very possible, the compression and leakdown tests don't lie though

 

[Kalisko]

Care to elaborate on the procedure when you did this. It sounds like you moved the cam gear with everything still assembled?

Well we couldn't get the crankshaft pulley off so we ended up slipping the belt off and re-aligned the exhaust cam. We then slowly but surely using screwdrivers to pull tension on the belt in between the teeth, and slowly guided the belt back on. took some elbow grease but yeah, we basically just moved the exhaust cam. Everything lines up perfect on the timing belt now. at Top dead center both cams are aligned.

 

[SpeedAddict62]

Did you take the lower timing cover off at all? Its possible that the oil pump gear might have rotated some how when you were doing all this, putting the rear balance shaft out of phase, causing the vibration.

 

[toofast82]

Well we couldn't get the crankshaft pulley off so we ended up slipping the belt off and re-aligned the exhaust cam. We then slowly but surely using screwdrivers to pull tension on the belt in between the teeth, and slowly guided the belt back on. took some elbow grease but yeah, we basically just moved the exhaust cam. Everything lines up perfect on the timing belt now. at Top dead center both cams are aligned.

hopefully you didn't relieve the pressure on the hydraulic tensioner which could bend some valves up

 

[Kalisko]

Yeah come to think of it I don't know why I forgot my rear balance shaft was on a sprocket that used the timing belt to keep in time. DOH me

Okay so I'll go ahead and get everything aligned how it is supposed to be this weekend.
The only question I have, is the crank pulley bolt (The middle large one, not the 4 small ones) a reverse thread or something? We put at least 200 pounds of force trying to get it to come loose.

Basically you get that big bolt off, then the 4 smaller ones to pull those two pullies off correct? then you can get the lower timing cover off, right?

 

[banshee04]

I bent 12 valves with 2 teeth off in about 10 min.

 

[Kalisko]

Sadly today I didn't get a chance to check compression, my bro took off with my tool.

If I bent even one valve, the cylinder will have low compression right?

 

[cheap90gsx]

yes it would have low compression if they were bent. why would you need to remove the crank bolt?

 

[Kalisko]

Okay.

I've been studying the manual all night and the only question I have now, is the process of when I go to reinstall the belt perfect.
Do I have to adjust my tensioner pulley like in the manual? or is that just for a new install?

So going over this in my head after the belt is lined up on all the sprockets perfect, goes:

1: Do the whole procedure removing the auto tensioner, compressing it(Very slowly), and putting a pin through, and reinstalling with the pin in.
2: Line up the timing belt in time with all the sprockets
3: two clockwise turns to the crank
4: remove pin

Or do you have to go through the tensioner pulley procedure that it gives you?

 

[SpeedAddict62]

You have to use the process that is explained in the manual, in order to get the correct tension on the timing belt. Have you checked out VFAQ and read about the alternative methods for setting the tension? They are very helpful. Here:

Timing Belt VFAQ
Timing Belt VFAQ Addition 1

Also, unless you are doing the balance shaft belt, why are you trying to take the crank sprocket off? You don't have to to just do the timing belt. If you really have to though, your best bet is to use an impact wrench, and if you don't have one, get a breaker bar, shove it into the square in the top of the bolt, and then wedge the breaker bar against something solid (I think I put it on top of the a-arm, but I can't remember). Then bump the starter, and try not to get hit by flying breaker bars.

 

[RoasT BeeF]

Basically you get that big bolt off, then the 4 smaller ones to pull those two pullies off correct?

The 4 12mm bolts are all that hold the crank pulley on. The large center bolt is for the crank sprocket, which you dont need to remove.

 

[Kalisko]

The 4 12mm bolts are all that hold the crank pulley on. The large center bolt is for the crank sprocket, which you dont need to remove.

Yeah I noticed that while studying the manual all night. The only question I had was about setting tension. But I have a pretty good understanding about everything now. thanks guys!
I'll let you know how it goes.

 

[Kalisko]

UPDATE----

Timing belt is off.

Even though the oil pump sprocket was still aligned with the timing marks, It was out of phase. I set the timing mark at 12'o'clock and let go and it fell towards the rear of the engine.
I then rotated it 360* and it fell to the front of the engine. Now i know it was out of phase. Also picked up a new timing belt so I dont have to pull this back apart .

I'll update when I get it back on.

 

[diambo4life]

BS out of phase it was.

 

[Kalisko]

Yeah. I have reinstalled it and ran out of time tonight finishing the car up. I only have to put the crank pulley on, the alternator belt, and the engine mount and I'm done. i can't wait to have it running perfect again

 

[lccynmbr13]

It's hilarious how many people roll around with their balance shafts 180* out. It's even funnier how many times "specialty shops" install it 180* out. This is why I do everything myself or take it to Pina Motorsports.