O2 v, what the hell... new to tuning

[THE_ARTIST_]

ok guys i need some HELP i just got my SAFC installed, and my O2 logs are all over the place it looks like a damn heart sensor thing. its been doing it since my S-AFC was installed i need to know how to tune the O2 sensor banks to get them the way they should be. It fluctuates from 0.02 up to 0.96 at idle it stays around 60-70v but as soon as i touch the throttle it goes up and down (just when im at cruising speeds) but when i open it up it stays around .98. Is it souposed to be like that? im really hesitant(sp) about playing with my AFC until i get an A/F ratio gauge (will be getting one tomarrow). But any HELP would be great, im pretty new to the tuning part. Thanks.

 

[clipse Gsx]

That is pretty much what should be going on with an o2 sensor... .96 is a little high but nothing outrageous, other than that, perfectly normal.

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

so when im just riding at normal speeds it is souposed to be up and down like that?

thanks

 

[SpoolnTsi]

It fluctuates from 0.02 up to 0.96 at idle it stays around 60-70v but as soon as i touch the throttle it goes up and down (just when im at cruising speeds) but when i open it up it stays around .98. Is it souposed to be like that?

Yea that is normal. It will always fluctuate like that. .98 seems pretty rich too me but if your not getting knock i guess ok. Also when you let off the gas it should flat line too. The higher the number the more rich you are, the lower the number the more lean you are.

im really hesitant(sp) about playing with my AFC until i get an A/F ratio gauge (will be getting one tomarrow).

That wont help you tune. There just a fancy way of showing you what the o2 sensor is doing. Instead of the logger showing you the volts, it shows you in pretty colors . They will tell you when something is wrong with the a/f ratio, so they are handy for a quick reference guide to the a/f ratio. The best narrowband for an a/f ratio gauge and to help tune would be the greddy 60mm warning gauge. But there quite expensive cuz there a complete kit with the o2 sensor. You could even do better and get a wideband but there more money yet. Once you get the hang of it and learn how your car works, its gets pretty easy. More time consuming than anything and can be a pain

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

so i just got to get the timing right, where should the timing be around on one of my logs it goes from 8 deg and it rises as the RPMs climb, it goes to 19 deg @ 6736 RPM, and the O2 sensor is at .98, then i shifted gears and the timing spiked to 37 deg @5492 RPM, O2 is .74v. as soon as i figure out how to get the logs on my CPU then i will make it eaiser for us all, sorry about that though. thanks


so basically i dont need an air fuel gauge? i just got to keep logging and tuning with the O2 sensor and timing. sorry if any of this sounds confusing. i really appreciate the help though

*edit* would i be better off with an EGT or fuel pressure gauge instead?

 

[SpoolnTsi]

so i just got to get the timing right, where should the timing be around on one of my logs it goes from 8 deg and it rises as the RPMs climb, it goes to 19 deg @ 6736 RPM, and the O2 sensor is at .98, then i shifted gears and the timing spiked to 37 deg @5492 RPM, O2 is .74v.

Thats normal. The timing will always advance with the rpm's. 20-25 timing advance i feel is the best. You can have more timing advance and be ok with it. Sometimes more is better, but you can have too much advance. Timing spiking between shifts is normal also.

so basically i dont need an air fuel gauge?

No you dont. I like to have one just for the fact that i can always have something to look at and get and idea of what is going on with my a/f ratio or o2 sensor.

i just got to keep logging and tuning with the O2 sensor and timing.

Theres lots of thing to consider when tuning. When your tuning, your tuning the timing, boost levels and your a/f ratio which is the o2 sensor. And you cant just tune by the o2 sensor. When you log, you have to log all the fuel trims, o2 trim and volts, injectors, timing, rpm's, and knock. Think thats it. Im doing this off of the top of my head right now and i cant think straight so bare with me . Dont worry bout the TPS. As long as its at 100% at WOT and 11% at idle your ok.

would i be better off with an EGT or fuel pressure gauge instead?

I dont have one and i dont feel the need for one. Ive never needed one. I really dont see how they help with tuning. Im sure they have their advantages. Some people like them im just not one of them. If the car is properly tuned, i really dont see the use for them. High egt temps are caused from running lean and high timing advance. The more timing advance, the higher the egt's get. Which none of those you will see with a properly tuned vehicle. If you do, your going to get knock which the logger will see and the object of tuning is to go as lean as you can get it WITHOUT knock

 

[awd4g63]

In order to monitor knock on your car, you're going to have to look at your timing curves. If you see any drops in your timing anywhere throughout the rpms, then you may need to richen things up at that rpm point. There's many things to do while tuning, so here's a couple of pages that should help out a good bit:

How the SAFC Works:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=105569

Tuning Guide for the Beginner to Intermediate Tuner:
http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=103469

Hope those help & good luck to you

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

cool thanks guys, this will deffinatly help

**EDIT** how do i tune for the long and short term fuel trims?

i appreciate it alot

 

[CanadianTSi]

Your Fuel trims should be fine...with the stock injectors the car cane handle things

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Forgot to mention that you do need a fp gauge when you get a fpr. You have to have one for proper tuning or else your not going to be able to tell how much fp your running

 

[Blue92]

EGT's are good to have. They tell you what is going on when you aren't logging. You really don't need a permanent fuel pressure gauge when you get a adj fpr, just one to temporarily hookup when you adjust the pressure. You do want to know what pressure you are running. Fuel pressure gauges are cheap though, mine was only 25 bucks, it taps into the -06 line I have. Just don't put it in the cabin of the car.

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

ok i need some more tips... i did a pull in second through third, 2nd gear from 4744 RPM-7484 RPM and my O2 sensor is reading 1.00v all the way and when i shift to 3rd it stayed at .98v through 3rd. i leaned it out before the run but it just seems to stay the same, i didnt lean it out very much just -1 or -2 from 4000-7000, i think the AFC settings are at: 4K,-2 5K,-1 6K,+1 7K,+2...it seems that 1.00v is kind of rich right? i guess what im asking is what is safe O2 voltage? what is too lean and what is too rich, thanks guys.

**EDIT** now at idle it jumps up and down its not staying @ 60-70v anymore is it okay if it does that? ......help...

 

[awd4g63]

On the SAFC, I would tune in 5% increments. This way you can get a good base fuel map, then you can fine tune when you get that down.

Still sounds like you need to lean it out a good bit. You need something to look at your timing, though, so you have an idea if you're getting knock.

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

i always log my timing, its not getting pulled yet, im kinda worried about the O2 sensor and my STFT & LTFT (i still dont know how to tune for those). ill try to lean it out a bit more today. but let me get somthing straight, when tuning the idea is to get the car as lean as possible without getting knock right? thx.

 

[sp00ln]

Tune by timing, not o2.

I just kinda skimmed the thread... so if this doesn't make sense, just dont listen to me :laugh:

 

[SpoolnTsi]

You cant just tune by timing alone or just 1 parameter, you have to take all into consideration. I understand what your saying but the way you worded that could easily confuse people and they definately wouldnt listen to ya, hehehe

 

[awd4g63]

when tuning the idea is to get the car as lean as possible without getting knock right? thx.

You can start with that, yeah, just make sure to keep a good eye on your timing. You could do good to start with -10 across the board, if not more; then you can tune from there.

 

[sp00ln]

You cant just tune by timing alone or just 1 parameter, you have to take all into consideration. I understand what your saying but the way you worded that could easily confuse people and they definately wouldnt listen to ya, hehehe

Heh, well there are some DSMs (2gs) that dont run well unless they have .86 o2s - while others run great with .94 o2s. That just what I'm saying. Timing shows knock. Thats why you tune by timing. But, yes... find out whats normal and monitor that.

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Heh, well there are some DSMs (2gs) that dont run well unless they have .86 o2s - while others run great with .94 o2s. That just what I'm saying. Timing shows knock. Thats why you tune by timing. But, yes... find out whats normal and monitor that.

Oh yea most definately. Every car is different i couldnt agree with you more. I wasnt trying to provoke an argument, i knew what you were saying. But they need to know how to work with all of them and which ones is best for their car

 

[sp00ln]

Oh yea most definately. Every car is different i couldnt agree with you more. I wasnt trying to provoke an argument, i knew what you were saying. But they need to know how to work with all of them and which ones is best for their car

Word. I wasn't trying to argue either, just stating some stuff that should be known? I guess? I dunno

 

[ahains]

High egt temps are caused from running lean and high timing advance. The more timing advance, the higher the egt's get

Quick note:
You have this backwards - retarded timing causes higher EGTs.

HTH,
Adrian

 

[THE_ARTIST_]

dammit i thought you guys were going to fight...jk , any ways i leand it out some more and the O2 is .90 to .94, timing dosent go above 20 degrees, and i ran a 14.8 with it last night, i know i could have done better my 60' was a 2.406 and my 1/8th was 9.655@ 74.933 MPH, and i've pulled a 2.2 60' and a 9.5xx 1/8th before, i tried a few things different with my driving last night, didnt really work out too well. but i think i could get a 14.7-14.6 with the tuning ive done so far just with better driving. dont bash my time the only real speed mod i got is the boost controller

 

[SpoolnTsi]

Quick note:
You have this backwards - retarded timing causes higher EGTs.

HTH,
Adrian

I hope your not trying to argue with me on this. Would you point out where I ever said you wouldnt get high egt's with timing retard. You cant cause i never said that. Where did you get that i have that backwards??? All i said is the more timing advance = higher egt's. Its common sense. Timing advances with the rpms..........to a certain point

 

[markgholland]

I hope your not trying to argue with me on this. Would you point out where I ever said you wouldnt get high egt's with timing retard. You cant cause i never said that. Where did you get that i have that backwards??? All i said is the more timing advance = higher egt's. Its common sense. Timing advances with the rpms..........to a certain point

You're saying two things at once here.

EGT's should stay at the car's "normal" range when you have a good tune. To some people that is 600 degrees/Celsius, to other's that is 850 degrees/Celsius. In general, an EGT gauge will really only tell you when you are pulling timing.

To The_Artist:
You really should study those links above. When you think you understand it, read it again because there will be something that you have missed. I can't stress the importance of making small changes on the AFC until you get a full understanding of what is going on.

You seem to be relying on your 02 voltage a little too much, or at least it appears that way. I'm sure if you have read up on tuning, you have heard the expression, "tune for knock." Like you stated before, the idea of tuning is that you lean your car out as much as possible before you get knock. However, you have a 2G without dsmlink, so you can't see knock. From the above link, http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58403 , Kyle clearly states,

For 0-3 counts of knock, the ECU will advance timing. For 4-7 or so counts, it will leave timing where it is, and anything over 7 will result in the ECU bringing the timing down in an attempt to control the detonation.

What does this mean for 2g's? Since you can't see physical knock on a 2g, without a dsmlink, you have to look at your timing curve and draw conclusions, based on the smoothness, where you are getting knock. If timing is pulled, make small adjustments, do another pull and see if your timing curve looks any better.

On another note, fuel trims are not 100% necessary to tune for. If you don't have an AFPR it is near impossible and useless to try. They are really only a reference to how close you are to the "stock" map with upgraded fuel components.

The stock 02 sensor will give you a general idea of where you are on your tune, but you should not keep leaning it out because your 02's are .90(as long as you are not pulling timing). My suggestion, get a wideband ASAP and forget about 02's and fuel trims. Make adjustments according to a wideband 02 sensor rather than the stock narrowband unit.

~Mark

 

[SpoolnTsi]

You're saying two things at once here.

EGT's should stay at the car's "normal" range when you have a good tune. To some people that is 600 degrees/Celsius, to other's that is 850 degrees/Celsius. In general, an EGT gauge will really only tell you when you are pulling timing.

Agreed, this is what i have been saying the whole time as i stated in my second post. I just didnt state about the timing retard because you shouldnt see it with a properly tuned vehicle

High egt temps are caused from running lean and high timing advance. The more timing advance, the higher the egt's get. Which none of those you will see with a properly tuned vehicle. If you do, your going to get knock which the logger will see and the object of tuning is to go as lean as you can get it WITHOUT knock