Non Turbo High Preformance

[Lofty]

Alright, I have a pretty unique idea.
I am going to try to see how many Hp I can get out of a non turbo car.
I am gonna upgrade everything except adding a turbo.
I am not gonna add one.
What would be my potential HP?
How much horses can I suck out of the engine?
And what should I upgrade?
I have Pro headers and pro downpipe coming in the mail.
I also have an Injen intake coming, and a magnaflow cat.
I heard I should put on an underdrive pully? What is this?
Thanks guys.

 

[xxsupralvrxx]

under drive pulleys go where your stock pully's are at an and they spin slower and a re generaly lighter, this in turn relives some parasitic(sp?) loss from the accesories

 

[KazooGS-T]

I'm not going to lie, you aren't going to be fast. Your best bet is to turbo the car and it's not very expensive to do so either, using factory parts.

 

[Lofty]

I'm not going to lie, you aren't going to be fast. Your best bet is to turbo the car and it's not very expensive to do so either, using factory parts.

Well I want reliability and speed, so if I remove the turbo I thought I could have that.
Is my idea really that farfetched?

 

[KazooGS-T]

These cars aren't unreliable stock. It's when you get into messing with every little thing and a 15 year old car that someone buys and mods/races and never does any maintenance to. You will not have speed with an n/a 4g63 without some serious cash put in it.

 

[Lofty]

These cars aren't unreliable stock. It's when you get into messing with every little thing and a 15 year old car that someone buys and mods/races and never does any maintenance to. You will not have speed with an n/a 4g63 without some serious cash put in it.

I'm not interested in running 12's. Not that fast. I just want some spunk
I just don't wanna get smoked by the honda civic down the street.
If you catch my drift.

 

[KazooGS-T]

Depending on which civic it is, you will. I understand exactly what you are saying but I mean your times now and 12's are a LARGE gap. Every little mod will help though, so intake, exhaust, underdrive pulley, ported intake manifold, etc all will help!

 

[Lofty]

Depending on which civic it is, you will. I understand exactly what you are saying but I mean your times now and 12's are a LARGE gap. Every little mod will help though, so intake, exhaust, underdrive pulley, ported intake manifold, etc all will help!

Alright, well if I do decide to put a turbo in it later, it will be all prepared for.
It's not gonna be like I'm going stock to turbo.
That's dumb.
But yeah I guess I'll just keep adding the little things, and see where I go. Thank you

 

[DSM1G90]

Really can't see about the underdrive pulley thing, esp when the stock pulley is designed to also be the harmonic damper that the crank needs, or it'll eventually explode with all the harmonics that the crank produces if using solid underdrive pulleys.

Big thing you really gotta think seriously about, is that your DSM is heavier and longer than that Honda in a long shot. Right there, you have a disadvantage and why they've got smaller motors.

If you're gonna spunk up a N/T 4G63, making it breathe easier is the main goal. How about dual exhaust, or even larger, 3" straightback exhaust, or change tranny fluid to Redline MT-90 synthetic to slick things up a bit along with a good 5w30 synthetic oil?

AND leave your timing alone at 5* BTDC.

 

[bastarddsm]

I'm not going to lie, you aren't going to be fast. Your best bet is to turbo the car and it's not very expensive to do so either, using factory parts.

###!


However, it is true that the most bang for your buck would be to turbo it.

If your serious about going decent in a n/t, build a 2.4 with at least 11:1 preferaably 12:1 compression, A ported head, the biggest cams you can find, a good intake, and a kick ass header. You'll also need to get you tranny done, with atleast a double syncrho second gear, so you can shift at 9000+.

If you can get a head, cams and intake that will support any kind of airflow at 9000, I belive 250hp ought to be possible.



Or for about $500 and a days work you can make the same or more...

 

[Lofty]

###!


However, it is true that the most bang for your buck would be to turbo it.

If your serious about going decent in a n/t, build a 2.4 with at least 11:1 preferaably 12:1 compression, A ported head, the biggest cams you can find, a good intake, and a kick ass header. You'll also need to get you tranny done, with atleast a double syncrho second gear, so you can shift at 9000+.

If you can get a head, cams and intake that will support any kind of airflow at 9000, I belive 250hp ought to be possible.



Or for about $500 and a days work you can make the same or more...

Then what would be an average sized turbo to put into it, I don't want anything monstrous, just some Ooomph.

 

[bastarddsm]

a 14b from a stock turbo car..
everything bolts up easily...

honestly you spend at least 4-5k on a n/a motor to make the same power as a turbo, and you lose you fuel economy

 

[JayRolla]

There was a guy with a 2g that made 145whp on a fully build n/t motor. I believe he has the record for hp and 1/4 mile. He ran a high 14. That is still incredibly slow!!

 

[99RedGs]

There was a guy with a 2g that made 145whp on a fully build n/t motor. I believe he has the record for hp and 1/4 mile. He ran a high 14. That is still incredibly slow!!

Bullet is making 203 whp and is running low 13's... 2.0 N/A 420A motor


His mod list isn't even as long as you would expect, and if he was to build a 2.4 he would make far more. Still with the exception of hondas, an N/A build isn't really as beneficial compared to boost. Although the 1g is lighter so that would help you.

 

[bane3d]

Do the maintenance and put together a budget first. I've looked at a lot of your posts and you are all over the place with what you want to do with your car. So seriously, determine your budget. The order of things I would do in your place.

1. Maintenance - make sure it's reliable. It's pointless to dump thousands into a car and find out 100 miles later that you will have to dump another couple thousand in repairs. Figure that out now. I'm dead serious on this. This is the first step people ignore and ends up doubling or tripling the cost of your project.

2. Put together a budget - be responsible and put in a lot of padding (about 1/3 of the budget) for misc. This is your project so it don't stray from your goals or you will be in over your head and you'll end up selling a half done project to someone else for cheap and losing a lot of money.

3. Talk to your spouse - be very realistic and put out your time table and money. You both need to be on board with this.

4. Research - research, research, and more research. I'm not to up on your car but I've owned a 99 elantra so it's basically the same engine wise. Check out these 2 sites for additional information:

Team 2GNT Forum - Board Main - Forum listings
2G (1996-2000) Elantra & Lantra -

d

 

[twistedimage03]

You could always look into Nitrous as well you could have the power available but still not have to worry about running boost all the time. just a thought

 

[TOONAH]

Lofty, I would like to join in on this, since I had the very same idea as you. I have been a fan of Cosworth since the 60's. Cosworth was founded by Bruce McClaren. We all know about the McClaren race cars. Anyway I believe you can easily get 200+ HP from a 1G 4G63 non-turbo.
As the man said, you must add as many cfm's of throughput as possible. 3" intake, 3" exhaust. Stage 3 head work. I just recently came to learn that the IG head can only be ported a small amount or it will blow the pressure test.
Put a Stage 3 2G head on a 6 bolt block. Use 10.5:1 pistons or you will never get the car to start. The decks will have to be O ringed to contain the pressure. Hotter camshafts. All the tricks. 100 Octane gas.. Cosworth has a kit for the Duratec 2.0L and they claim you will get 200 HP with it. The Focus Duratec 2.0 is very similar in design to the 4G63 except it does not have balance shafts. When I quit souping up Toyota's I decided to do 4G63's. My first thought was: If you design the block and crankshaft right, why would you need balance shafts? The only reason that the 4G63 became popular is that up until 1992.5 the steel that DSM used in the block and crank was very excellent, better than British steel. The design of the crank is quite stupid. Full counterweights? in a performance engine?
The wasted spark firing order is clever though. Two up, two down. Its like a double pumper. You get more torque but it puts more strain on the crank. I would suggest using a dual runner intake on your NT project. The Cyclone. I have one. Low to midrange torque is going to be your goal. Sure you won't catch a turbo on the home stretch but you will be able to have more torque available around 3500 rpm's. You'll beat the turbo until it spools up. You will need a Quaiffe LSD and stick with a FWD. Strip the heck out of it to get your weight down. A pound saved is a tenth of a pound of torque gained.
I would enjoy collaborating with you further on your project, so feel free to email or PM me.

 

[ryan90]

I am dropping mine in with 4-2-1 header, 2.5" exhaust. Injen intake, K&N, Bshaft delete, ACT flywheel, and will use my existing stock turbo pump. Going to pickup a set of 14lbs. rims and pull...50-100lbs. of weight out of the rear as well.

I have a friend with a 4-2-1 header, 2.5" exhaust and suspension work that ran 16.2 on some heavy ass rims. Since then he has put the stockers on (scale said lighter by 6 lbs.) and put in an MSD. Butt dyno had good results. I think his ignition was worn though b/c he had a hell of an improvement with the msd.

building an NA motor, v8, v6, or I4, is all about the head and revving to the sky. you could put all lighter internals do a valve job, port and polish and cams. But if you're on a budget. A turbo route would be cheaper. I myself cannot afford the initial cost of the turbo motor. It would cost me an extra 800 for the turbo motor i wanted and everything going on the NT motor i am getting, would have been going on my turbo motor and I am going for reliability. I could care less about power as long as I am not gutless

http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/1g-n-t-tech/12064-1g-all-motor-alternative.html

^ you seen that yet??

 

[bastarddsm]

Honestly to make any kinda power in a n/t your going to need lots of compression (12:1+), lots of rpm (9000), and the airflow to support it. Your honestly looking at 2500+ in parts to attempt to make 200hp..And then you will have a motor that will suck on the street, use lots of gas, and be very shortlived.

Turboing an engine is may more reliable. Honestly all you have to do is add 2 wires to the harness,and bolt a turbo on. Your car will, run exactly like stock, onlyit will make about 200hp,

 

[1qkfwd]

I got bored and decided to take up the N/A thing just for something to do. I have been doing hrs of reasearch in my quest for a 13 sec N/A 1G eclipse. Here is what I will be doing. I am using a G4CP engine out of a 98 hyundai sonata. It uses a 6 bolt bottom end and a 2G style head with the small intake ports. It puts out the same 135WHP that the 1G N/A engine does. At my elevation that would be right around 110WHP. So I have a lot to make up. The euro version of the eclipse comes from the factory with 150WHP. It has a 10.1 compression and from the pics that I have came across it has a factory style header and a beter flowing intake manifold. I am trying to grab me a set of those pistons through friends family that lives in germany. That takes care of my bottom end. For a head I will be using one off a 1.6L Hyundai elantra. It has 4cc smaller combustion chamber. I will have the head rebuilt and also shaved down a little more. This should as an estimation right now should give me almost 11.1 compression. I will be geting rid of the balance shafts, running a light weight flywheel, and unorthodox crank pulley. I to help it get down the track I will be using an 1G AWD transmission. With the higher gear ratio It should help out a lot with the acceleration. I am gona use slicks. I ran a 16.7 @ 83 MPH in my N/A car at 4500ft in the mountains. this was almost full weight. I had the back seats out, passenger seat out, and the spare and tools out. Now the car is fully gutted with no dash and it will have a 1.5 gallon cell under the hood. From experance all I need is 7-8 MPH in the 1/4 to get my high 13 time slip as long as I can get the car out of the whole with at least 1.8 60ft times. That should equal out to 60-70 hp more power than stock. This would all be done with stock engine parts! As soon as I get to the track and tune the car I will toy around with cams and gears to see how much more I can get. Why do all this. Just cause I can and knowone has gone decent times in a N/A fwd car with cheap parts. Don't let anyone tell you its a waste to build a N/A car i can be fun.

 

[bastarddsm]

Oh I agree, I am planning on a n/t fwd build as well. A little higher budger however. The problem is, neither my or your build will be a good daily driver. The op wants a daily driver.

 

[Lofty]

Turboing an engine is may more reliable. Honestly all you have to do is add 2 wires to the harness,and bolt a turbo on. Your car will, run exactly like stock, onlyit will make about 200hp,

Whenever I read all the guides from NT to T it scares me.
They make it seem WAYYYY more complicated then that.
I'm not too awesome with cars, so I dunno if I could do this. Thats why I was gonna go the NT route.

 

[spoonman]

Strip it. I went 14.7 with a custom racing exhaust, hacked air box stock intake pipe, solid motor mounts, FWD turbo transmission, and a car that weighs (less than, I rounded up) 2200 with out me in it. Beats alot of turbos

 

[bastarddsm]

Whenever I read all the guides from NT to T it scares me.
They make it seem WAYYYY more complicated then that.
I'm not too awesome with cars, so I dunno if I could do this. Thats why I was gonna go the NT route.

dude. http://www.angelfire.com/il2/freestyle/turboconversion.html thats how i did mine.

rough outline:

1. put in good clutch ( have to do this for a high hp n/t build anyway)
2. install a turbo oilpan
3. install turbo exh manifold, and turbo
4. run 2 wires from the ecu, one to the maf, and one to knock sensor
5. install smic and piping
6. connect oil / coolant line to turbo.
7. install turbo ecu
8. shred the #### out of your turbo fwd.
9. buy lots of new front tires.

Most of the work is the same If you do a n/t build..

I did mine in about 6 hrs.

 

[Lofty]

dude. http://www.angelfire.com/il2/freestyle/turboconversion.html thats how i did mine.

rough outline:

1. put in good clutch ( have to do this for a high hp n/t build anyway)
2. install a turbo oilpan
3. install turbo exh manifold, and turbo
4. run 2 wires from the ecu, one to the maf, and one to knock sensor
5. install smic and piping
6. connect oil / coolant line to turbo.
7. install turbo ecu
8. shred the #### out of your turbo fwd.
9. buy lots of new front tires.

Most of the work is the same If you do a n/t build..

I did mine in about 6 hrs.

Oh. Hmm easy enough.

Thank you!

(Ps, I immed you on Aim, where you at dawg )