No Spark No Injector pulse, did numerous tests, need input

[leprachaun]

Typical No Spark, No fuel thread here. Just looking for some final input before I go wasting money on random components.

Car:
1996 Eagle Talon Esi with stock 420A, no modifications, 5 spd.

Rundown of failure:
Was hard to start on occasion, with 20 seconds of cranking and then finally started. Did this for a few months, and then one morning stopped working completely. Have been testing random items since. For a brief period it worked again (without me changing anything) but the next day on a hard 1-2 shift it died and hasn't worked since.

Cranks fine, no start. No fire on any cylinder. Plugs not wet after cranking. Pressure in fuel rail.

Items replaced:
None

Tests performed:
-Check engine light: No codes stored, nothing found. Lights up for a few seconds when key is first turned to ON, then goes out, as it should.

-Spark Plug removed: tested for spark while cranking and held to ground, no spark found.

-ASD and fuel pump relays: Both click when ignition turned on. No further testing has been performed.

-Camshaft Position Sensor: pulls 9V and a cycling .2 to 5.0V, both tested at the PCM. I have removed and cleaned the connector and sensor. Is there a magnet on the 420A? (I'm reading about magnets missing in some of my searches)

-Crankshaft Position Sensor: pulls 9V and a solid 5.0V, both tested at the PCM. My DVOM doesn't sample fast enough to pick up the cycle on the CPS (I'm assuming), which is why I'm not seeing the 5.0V jumping up and down. Anyone care to comment on this logic? I have removed and cleaned the connector and sensor.

-Ignition Coil: Did bench ohm test, passed. Has 12V on the middle black/red wire for 2 seconds when key is on, and no voltage on the other two wires. When cranking, it then pulses 12V to zero on all three wires (might be some inaccuracies due to my voltmeter here). Coil has small crack in the bottom brown glue type housing portion that holds the two coils into the black casing (not sure if this would matter).

-Injectors: Hooked up stethoscope and cannot hear them pulsing during cranking. Have not checked with a noid light yet.

-Battery: Both terminals cleaned and solid grounds on chassis and transmission.


Any other suggestions? My main logic is leading towards the coil, seeing that the coil has the 12 V signal, but is not sparking, however I can't get over the fact that the injectors are not pulsing also. Is there any specific sensor or situation that would cause both the ignition coil and the injectors to not pulse? If the ignition coil fails, do the injectors stop pulsing automatically? It just seems strange to have two failures at the same time.

Specific questions:
-What voltages should I be seeing on the coil during cranking?
-What voltages should I be seeing on the crankshaft position sensor when cranking (to confirm other threads)?


I'm obtaining a Fluke DVOM that is very fast and has true RMS capability over the weekend so I should be able to obtain more accurate readings. I will also go pick up a noid light.

Thanks for any input.

My 9 years of lurking finally broken with a head stumping issue

 

[primestick]

Did you check your timing... I doubt that the injectors and the coil would fail at the same time (not saying that it couldent happen) I know for a fact that if you have the timing wrong the car will not spark (myne had the same issue when I bought it, prevous owner didnt set timing right and couldnt get it to spark) Im thinking you might have jumped the belt... Hope not though.

 

[LD25Delta9]

Did you check your timing belt... I know for a fact that if you have the timing wrong the car will not spark.

No. This is not fact.

OP: Test your ASD relays. Just because its click doesn't mean it works. Also, does your fuel pump kick on when you turn the key?

The Cam sensor does have a magnet on it that picks up the magnet on the end of the camshaft.

The cracked housing on your coil could most definitely be (one of) the problem(s). Cracked housings on coils arc to grounds instead of creating spark for your vehicle.

Your coil should have a 12v constant and the other 2 wires should cycle. Not all 3 cycle... that sounds like ^^^

Your CPS and Cam sensor should both be getting 8v from the ECU and cycling 5v back.

Hope this helps, good luck!

 

[primestick]

according to the Haynes manual if the cps and cam sensors do not sence
the cams and crank are set properly it will not spark to protect your valve train


Also read this post... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/398148-95-2gnt-no-spark.html

And This post... http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/420a-bolt-tech/319767-no-spark-after-timing-belt-install.html

Both refrence that if the timing is off YOU WILL NOT GET SPARK.

 

[LD25Delta9]

The first thing you should be referencing primestick, is rule #5.

2nd: The first thread you posted had nothing to do with timing, it was his neutral safety switch. The 2nd thread you posted was an extreme condition for a CAS and CPS related no start. In any other type of situation, if the CAS and CPS are that far off from one another that they don't cause spark, I'd be more concerned about the valves that just slapped the top of my piston.

3rd: You can CAPS LOCK all you want, but my statement stands. It is not fact that if your timing is off, you won't get spark. It is fact that if your timing is far enough off to throw the CPS and CAS out of sync, you won't get spark.

This is a technical forum where people depend on correct information. Throwing out info based off of a fluke incident and claiming it to be fact for any time a 420a's timing is off is just asinine. If a CAS were so dependent on the CPS being dead-on or you get no spark, then adjustable cams would be pointless...

 

[primestick]

The first thing you should be referencing primestick, is rule #5.

2nd: The first thread you posted had nothing to do with timing, it was his neutral safety switch. The 2nd thread you posted was an extreme condition for a CAS and CPS related no start. In any other type of situation, if the CAS and CPS are that far off from one another that they don't cause spark, I'd be more concerned about the valves that just slapped the top of my piston.

3rd: You can CAPS LOCK all you want, but my statement stands. It is not fact that if your timing is off, you won't get spark. It is fact that if your timing is far enough off to throw the CPS and CAS out of sync, you won't get spark.

This is a technical forum where people depend on correct information. Throwing out info based off of a fluke incident and claiming it to be fact for any time a 420a's timing is off is just asinine. If a CAS was so dependent on the CPS being dead on or you get no spark, then adjustable cams would be pointless...

What ever im not gunna argue, but if the op slipped his timing belt during his "hard shift from 1st to 2nd" then there was enough speed for his timing to slip 180 degrees off and therefore no spark.

 

[LD25Delta9]

What ever im not gunna argue

Good, and about that rule #5....

but if the op slipped his timing belt during his "hard shift from 1st to 2nd" then there was enough speed for his timing to slip 180 degrees off and therefore no spark.

Speed has nothing to do with belts slipping time. RPM's do. A hard shift to me describes possible grinding or a really choppy clutch release. Now, had the OP described a missed shift, then all of this would be very relevant information, because what happens when you miss a shift? That's right! The Engines RPM's spike! Now that sounds like conditions that would cause a belt to slip time... but I'm just Delta, what do I know?

After reading and re-reading the OP's OP, it sounds like the Crank Angle Sensor.

OP: You should be getting the 5V cycle back on the sensor. If you were able to pick up the cycle off of the CPS, you should be able to get it off of the CAS as well. Sounds to me like you need a new one. Most of what primestick is saying is correct, if the ECU isn't getting a reference from one sensor or the other, it can cause a no spark/no fuel condition.