Need your opinion guys...

[kingjust]

What's up fellas. I've decided to push my build completion date to early 09. That gives me plenty of time to readjust things with the build. Let me start off with my build list:

7bolt late 95 block bored .20 over completely cleaned
100mm crank w/ARP mains
Manley H beams
Wiescos STRKR slugs 8.9 comp
Completely balanced!!

FFWD BSEK
EVO 3 OFHB w/oil cooler provisions -10 lines and nice size cooler
Fully built, mild porting 1g head: SS std size vavles, 3g lifters, supertech dual spring setup (complete setup... though got mad after i saw the MAD beehives on Darren site #^%$##!@%^, ) seating and porting done by myself except assembly (needed to get other shit done so I paid my machinest a nominal fee for it .
ARP head studs
BC 280's
FP EX mani ceramic coated, wrapped and silicone treated
FP 3065 turbo setup w/44mm WG, and FP 02
FIC 1050's
Aeromotive
Walbro 255lph (rewired of course)
Complete fuel feed line upgrade. -6 right now might go to -8 (with a dual walbro setup).
Hawver Intake mani (in the mail as we speak)
Throttlebody.com rebuilt N/T TB to 63mm
Custom intercooler and pipes (going to be built by me)
Mishimoto Rad with twin 12" fans
Dual Catch Can setup from Soukai (soon to be ordered)
Fluidampr with ARP crank bolt
Turbo XS dual stage BC
Dynatek ARC-2
10.2mm wires
DSMLink V2 (wating for V3 )
Digital Gauges via VEI
...some other shit, and waiting for the fully built Jacks Tranny with every single option available (major factor for the push back, that's expensive shit!!!! )

My goal is 450-500 DD on 93, and 550+ on 93 with meth.

But now, on to my main question. I have a brand new 7bolt ptt twin disk with the disks that hold the most power. I'm thinking of driving train longevity here so i'm probably going to be getting rid of it. This car is going to be a company car and will not see very much track time. Mostly driven to local shows and shit to show my capabilities. Either way, i'm thinking of going back to a single disk with a sprung disk. So my question to everyone is what would be your suggestions being that torque will be around 480 - 500 max on the tune i'm going to do. Should I keep the PTT or continue with my own suggestion? And if anyone is possibly interesed in that PTT pm me, will talk offline.

Thanks,

KJ

 

[twicks69]

Stay with the twin disk -- it is only going to last longer, and be more friendly to your engine and drivetrain -- lower moment of inertia, and better disengagement characteristics along with much better torque capacity.

 

[ericbev]

Stay with the twin disk -- it is only going to last longer, and be more friendly to your engine and drivetrain -- lower moment of inertia, and better disengagement characteristics along with much better torque capacity.

X2

Hence the typically hefty price increase when going to a multi disk setup.... they are ohh soo nice

 

[kingjust]

Stay with the twin disk -- it is only going to last longer, and be more friendly to your engine and drivetrain -- lower moment of inertia, and better disengagement characteristics along with much better torque capacity.

That's what I was thinking... so is this extra vibratory issue (supposed because of the floating plates) really an issue?

 

[kingjust]

X2

Hence the typically hefty price increase when going to a multi disk setup.... they are ohh soo nice

Not for the military...

 

[twicks69]

That's what I was thinking... so is this extra vibratory issue (supposed because of the floating plates) really an issue?

What is the issue? Vibratory in meaning of clutch chatter, or vibratory in meaning of an unbalanced rotating assembly?

There is no issue; the chatter is very little and it is extremely streetable.

 

[kingjust]

What is the issue? Vibratory in meaning of clutch chatter, or vibratory in meaning of an unbalanced rotating assembly?

There is no issue; the chatter is very little and it is extremely streetable.

Then WTF am i'm reading about Twin Disks have more of a likelyhood to damage drive trains because of it's harmonics? I can't seem to remeber where I read it... i'm assuming the unbalanced-ness of it . I know I read it some where... let me keep looking. I might just be paranoid... more of the latter I think

 

[1992awdlaser]

Here are what some people posted on dsmlink forums. This is the thread if you have access. DSMLink User Group Forums

"i have the quater master on my awd.. daily driving it was at first was really hard. you need some getting used to it. but after it was fine and i got used to it. personally i wouldnt recommend it on a daily driver. you also have to define what you mean by daily driver. the twin disk is hard on your synchros for daily driving. alot of hamonics from the twin disk gets transfered into the trans and all the rattling and harmonics ends up mushrooming the syncros in the long run.. i put about 8-10k on my rebuilt trans and all the the key springs broke and synchros were all mushroomed. not good.

performance stand point its hand down the best. for a daily i wouldnt recommend unless you do a yearly teardown of the trans for inspection."




"the fact that you have two disc that is not sprung and a floater plate and a very light weight assembly the trans takes alot of the harmonics that the clutch makes espcecially the input shaft.. if you have ever driven a qm or ptt twin disk on the highway crusin you know what talking about harmonics and rattles and thats what kills your syncrhos.

all that vibration causes the synchros to move side to side prematurely in the hub assembly which cause the synchro to mushroom against the key on the hub and sleeve where it sits in.. if anyone here has ever rebuilt a trans you know what am talking about.. ill try to get some of my hold synchros and try to take pics.."


"It's a toss up.

A twin disc is worlds easier on the synchros while shifting the car, but the harmonics that are transferred through the clutch setup are very brutal."


"The twin disc does tear up your synchros. It has nothing to do with clutch adjustment. It tears up the synchros where the keys meet the synchro not where the synchro meets the cone on the gear. This is due to harmonics from the clutch."


Keep in mind all of these posts are from people using twin disks. The only ones that said the opposite are poeple that heard they are fine for daily driving and have not actually driven/owned a twin disk.

 

[JayRolla]

My buddy has been running his Devo tuning twin disc setup for almost a year now. It makes some noises but over all is not too bad for DD. It does grab hard and he broke a front axle from a launch but he dropped it pretty hard at 6000rpm, and this is on a 14b at stock boost.

Once you get used too the clutch its not that bad. Not to mention it will hold all the tq you can through at it and allow you to shift smoothly up too 10,000rpms if needed. If you go back to a single disc shifting above 7000rpms gets hard.

 

[twicks69]

OK, well lets see, I run a twin disk, I am running much more HP than your goals, and I rebuild my own transmissions.

I have direct experience with transmission wear, engine wear and clutch wear characteristics with the Quarter Master 7.25" V-drive twin disk using the rally .125" (.250" overall thickness) disks.

I have seen the LEAST amount of wear on the clutch assembly since changing over to a twin disk.

After over two years of usage on a car making well over 600awhp the entire time, up to current power levels of 750awhp, the clutch disk wear was at 0.2445" and 0.2446". There was very little wear with no hot spotting, uneven wear, etc. The floaters and the fulcrum disk along with the pressure plate and flywheel looked nearly brand new.

This setup had well over 35K street miles, 250+ dyno pulls, 100+track passes, and constant abuse. It has handled better than any other clutch I have ever owned, and has caused less wear, and less transmission breakage.

The synchros, bearings and hub/sliders also looked nearly brand new in the transmission that just blew up due to power output -- I stripped the output gears (intermediate shaft, 3rd gear, center diff) and twisted the splines on the input shaft, and ripped the splines off of the clutch disks. These were the standard "off the shelf" clutch disks, NOT the forged hub clutch disks -- I have since upgraded to the forged hub disks and have had no problems.

The standard disks were the original ones installed, and the transmission lasted over 1.5 seasons -- I was going through 5 transmissions a year before this, along with at least 1-2 pressure plates and flywheel friction surfaces at the minimum. The only clutch disk that lasted really well was my South Bend Clutch kevlar disk and an ACT 2600 pressure plate -- that was the last clutch I used before changing over to twin-disk back in 2005.

As for other wear, my main bearings look excellent considering the engine power levels and boost levels it is seeing.

I get a little clutch chatter on decelleration above 3500rpms, up to around 4200rpms when the floaters chatter; but it is not damaging.

I am also running a stock crank pulley.

I have had no issues with increased engine or transmission wear since installing and running the twin-disk clutch.

I have only reduced my 60-foot times, and have not missed a shift since 2005.

I strongly reccomend using a properly set-up twin-disk clutch with a properly functioning clutch hydraulic system. It is your best investment.



Why don't you try the darn clutch first instead of just going off what you heard from a "friend of a friend".

 

[twicks69]

"the fact that you have two disc that is not sprung and a floater plate and a very light weight assembly the trans takes alot of the harmonics that the clutch makes espcecially the input shaft.. if you have ever driven a qm or ptt twin disk on the highway crusin you know what talking about harmonics and rattles and thats what kills your syncrhos.

all that vibration causes the synchros to move side to side prematurely in the hub assembly which cause the synchro to mushroom against the key on the hub and sleeve where it sits in.. if anyone here has ever rebuilt a trans you know what am talking about.. ill try to get some of my hold synchros and try to take pics.."

The only synchro that mushrooms the key passage is on the reverse synchro. If anything, I break the 3/4 key springs -- but it still shifts properly.

I have not seen any increased wear to my synchros or hub and sliders due to using a twin-disk clutch. If anything, I have seen much less wear to my 1/2 and 3/4 hub and sliders and synchros since the twin-disk.

 

[1992awdlaser]

I was just posting what other users have said. I wasn't trying to say you are wrong about your car or anything. We don't even know if the clutch is what caused their problem. There are other things that could have. I just fealt that since there was so many on dsmlink that said the same thing that it had to be mentioned at least.

Is your clutch a sprung or solid hub clutch twicks?

 

[twicks69]

I was just posting what other users have said. I wasn't trying to say you are wrong about your car or anything. We don't even know if the clutch is what caused their problem. There are other things that could have. I just fealt that since there was so many on dsmlink that said the same thing that it had to be mentioned at least.

Is your clutch a sprung or solid hub clutch twicks?

No offense taken.

The clutch is solid hub with the metal rally forged hub disks.

 

[kingjust]

OK, well lets see, I run a twin disk, I am running much more HP than your goals, and I rebuild my own transmissions.

I have direct experience with transmission wear, engine wear and clutch wear characteristics with the Quarter Master 7.25" V-drive twin disk using the rally .125" (.250" overall thickness) disks.

I have seen the LEAST amount of wear on the clutch assembly since changing over to a twin disk.

After over two years of usage on a car making well over 600awhp the entire time, up to current power levels of 750awhp, the clutch disk wear was at 0.2445" and 0.2446". There was very little wear with no hot spotting, uneven wear, etc. The floaters and the fulcrum disk along with the pressure plate and flywheel looked nearly brand new.

This setup had well over 35K street miles, 250+ dyno pulls, 100+track passes, and constant abuse. It has handled better than any other clutch I have ever owned, and has caused less wear, and less transmission breakage.

The synchros, bearings and hub/sliders also looked nearly brand new in the transmission that just blew up due to power output -- I stripped the output gears (intermediate shaft, 3rd gear, center diff) and twisted the splines on the input shaft, and ripped the splines off of the clutch disks. These were the standard "off the shelf" clutch disks, NOT the forged hub clutch disks -- I have since upgraded to the forged hub disks and have had no problems.

The standard disks were the original ones installed, and the transmission lasted over 1.5 seasons -- I was going through 5 transmissions a year before this, along with at least 1-2 pressure plates and flywheel friction surfaces at the minimum. The only clutch disk that lasted really well was my South Bend Clutch kevlar disk and an ACT 2600 pressure plate -- that was the last clutch I used before changing over to twin-disk back in 2005.

As for other wear, my main bearings look excellent considering the engine power levels and boost levels it is seeing.

I get a little clutch chatter on decelleration above 3500rpms, up to around 4200rpms when the floaters chatter; but it is not damaging.

I am also running a stock crank pulley.

I have had no issues with increased engine or transmission wear since installing and running the twin-disk clutch.

I have only reduced my 60-foot times, and have not missed a shift since 2005.

I strongly reccomend using a properly set-up twin-disk clutch with a properly functioning clutch hydraulic system. It is your best investment.



Why don't you try the darn clutch first instead of just going off what you heard from a "friend of a friend".

MEEE YOWWW... J/K, but wouldn't keeping the clutch in essence be listening to what I heard from you? Again, just bullshitting...

Actually, that's exactly what I was looking for, some real world usage and feelings on it. You need to market fo them also, I think with what you have as a setup and the results you get, i'm pretty sure QM or PTT will pay good for that type of marketing, . For real though, thanks, I just wanted to be sure that the money I spent on the setup is well worth it's investment. I'm also surprised by the stock harmonic balancer, that right there is bad ass not have an ATI/fluidampr.

Thanks twicks for your ever so soft yet abrasive response , you da man... oh yeah, got a spare flywheel ring that I could cop from you for a little cash? You know these clutches don't come with'em pressed on.

Thanks to all who posted, I think this can be closed now.

 

[twicks69]

Unfortunately, I do not have any spare ring gears; PTT should have them in stock for their production flywheels.

Again, I don't mean to be an A-hole, I am just being direct about the fact that your own experience with a product is more important than anything else.

Each person has their preferences; mine is a clutch that isn't going to fail, and will produce positive results. So far, the QM clutch from [insert shameless plug for:] Adam @ Devo Tuning (DEVOTUNING, Home of the world's fastest EVO) [/end shameless plug] , has been the best clutch for my application, and is plenty streetable when you are trying to drive a 1000HP car down the street.

If you want to run a single disk clutch, I have had many other threads reccomending an ACT2600 PP, South Bend Clutch sprung kevlar disk from Performance Parts Aftermarket and Racing ( South Bend Mitsubishi 2G Eclipse-Talon Clutch Disks ), and a good flywheel (Fidanza or ACT). This is a great clutch for street/strip/autocross in AWD or FWD applications up to 500-600whp and 500-600tq. It ran great for a couple years with this clutch, and was only removed because I was sick of missing shifts at 7500-8500rpms at the track, and it couldn't handle extreme overheating without cooldown (then it was just fine after cooling). It treated me just fine for 10-11-second passes, and had excellent wear characteristics. If you read the reviews page at Horsepower Freaks ( South Bend Clutch Disks Reviews ), you will see that I stood behind their product with great success.

I really do hope that this discussion helps you, as I just want to see as many people I give advise to succeed with their project and their goals. I have alot of experience and I just want you all to spend your money in the right places so that you don't have to replace parts more than necessary.



As for a transmission that can handle the power that you are going to put down, I would reccomend the following:

*Late 92 Input shaft (deburred and cryotreated).
*91-99 Intermediate shaft (deburred, shot peened and cryotreated).
*95-99 1st gear, 2nd gear (double synchro), 1/2 hub and slider, 1/2 shift fork and synchros.
*Late 92 3rd gear, 4th gear, 3/4 hub and slider, 3/4 shift fork (cryotreated)
*95-99 5th gear, 5th gear and reverse synchro
*4-spider Center differential modified with a Beyond Redline forged chromoly 4-spider cross-shaft ( Beyond Redline :: Performance Center ), and clearanced properly. Be sure to cryotreat and deburr the output gear on the center diff lower housing, and use a new upper housing with a Torrington bearing modification.
*Stock front differential with a "Rip Grip" from Jon at TRE ( WELCOME TO TRE## WE SPECIALIZE IN MANUAL TRANSMISSION REPAIR ) or a Quaife limited slip differential.
*Use new Late 92-spec forged chromoly shift rails with the 4th roll pin modification for the 3/4 shift fork.
*Cryotreat your output shaft and ring/pinion.
*Use a new or good condition viscous coupler with new snapring and detent ball.
*Use new or good condition properly-sized bellhousing bolts and bellhousing dowels.
*Modified clutch fork for use with Quarter Master clutch (from DEVOTUNING, Home of the world's fastest EVO), or the proper slave cylinder if you are using the PTT clutch (Mitsubishi mighty max slave cylinder).
*Mitsubishi Throwout Bearing
*Use new Mitsubishi flywheel bolts with red loctite (Quartermaster clutch requires automatic flexplate bolts due to using a thinner flywheel than a stock or Fidanza/ACT unit).

*Follow the installations and torque specifications for each specific unit.

This should be enough for you to have a professional build you a transmission and clutch to fulfill your needs (as long as they are shimming the transmission for the proper preloads/end play), such as TRE ( WELCOME TO TRE## WE SPECIALIZE IN MANUAL TRANSMISSION REPAIR ), Shep (SHEPTRANS.com - Home) or JacksTransmissions (www.jackstransmissions.com). I am only building local people's transmissions currently, and am not in competition with these major shops that know what they are doing.

As well, I would reccomend having a new set of Raxles RACE front axles ordered from Marty at Raxles.com ( Raxles - Raxles Home )-- call him and tell him that I sent you, and that you are looking for the RACE version. He has lifetime warranty -- free replacement no matter what happens to them, and they are extremely inexpensive, high quality axles. He also has excellent customer service and can ship very quickly.

Finally, I would reccomend high quality motor mounts at all four locations. The Energy suspension or Prothane full-bushing replacements for the driver side and passenger side are requirements with our cars. For the front and rear mounts, the solid aluminum replacements ( http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/289588-solid-front-rear-aluminum-motor-mounts.html ) or a solid urethane replacement is very important in preventing wheel hop and front differential, transmission or axle damage.


This stuff should give you more insight into what it takes to hold the power that you are going to be making with as little potential for failure as possible, all while spending a reasonable amount of money that won't break the bank.

Good luck,

Tim Zimmer

 

[bjbaxter]

twin disk all the way!!!!

 

[kingjust]

Unfortunately, I do not have any spare ring gears; PTT should have them in stock for their production flywheels.

Again, I don't mean to be an A-hole, I am just being direct about the fact that your own experience with a product is more important than anything else.

Each person has their preferences; mine is a clutch that isn't going to fail, and will produce positive results. So far, the QM clutch from [insert shameless plug for:] Adam @ Devo Tuning (DEVOTUNING, Home of the world's fastest EVO) [/end shameless plug] , has been the best clutch for my application, and is plenty streetable when you are trying to drive a 1000HP car down the street.

If you want to run a single disk clutch, I have had many other threads reccomending an ACT2600 PP, South Bend Clutch sprung kevlar disk from Performance Parts Aftermarket and Racing ( South Bend Mitsubishi 2G Eclipse-Talon Clutch Disks ), and a good flywheel (Fidanza or ACT). This is a great clutch for street/strip/autocross in AWD or FWD applications up to 500-600whp and 500-600tq. It ran great for a couple years with this clutch, and was only removed because I was sick of missing shifts at 7500-8500rpms at the track, and it couldn't handle extreme overheating without cooldown (then it was just fine after cooling). It treated me just fine for 10-11-second passes, and had excellent wear characteristics. If you read the reviews page at Horsepower Freaks ( South Bend Clutch Disks Reviews ), you will see that I stood behind their product with great success.

I really do hope that this discussion helps you, as I just want to see as many people I give advise to succeed with their project and their goals. I have alot of experience and I just want you all to spend your money in the right places so that you don't have to replace parts more than necessary.



As for a transmission that can handle the power that you are going to put down, I would reccomend the following:

*Late 92 Input shaft (deburred and cryotreated).
*91-99 Intermediate shaft (deburred, shot peened and cryotreated).
*95-99 1st gear, 2nd gear (double synchro), 1/2 hub and slider, 1/2 shift fork and synchros.
*Late 92 3rd gear, 4th gear, 3/4 hub and slider, 3/4 shift fork (cryotreated)
*95-99 5th gear, 5th gear and reverse synchro
*4-spider Center differential modified with a Beyond Redline forged chromoly 4-spider cross-shaft ( Beyond Redline :: Performance Center ), and clearanced properly. Be sure to cryotreat and deburr the output gear on the center diff lower housing, and use a new upper housing with a Torrington bearing modification.
*Stock front differential with a "Rip Grip" from Jon at TRE ( WELCOME TO TRE## WE SPECIALIZE IN MANUAL TRANSMISSION REPAIR ) or a Quaife limited slip differential.
*Use new Late 92-spec forged chromoly shift rails with the 4th roll pin modification for the 3/4 shift fork.
*Cryotreat your output shaft and ring/pinion.
*Use a new or good condition viscous coupler with new snapring and detent ball.
*Use new or good condition properly-sized bellhousing bolts and bellhousing dowels.
*Modified clutch fork for use with Quarter Master clutch (from DEVOTUNING, Home of the world's fastest EVO), or the proper slave cylinder if you are using the PTT clutch (Mitsubishi mighty max slave cylinder).
*Mitsubishi Throwout Bearing
*Use new Mitsubishi flywheel bolts with red loctite (Quartermaster clutch requires automatic flexplate bolts due to using a thinner flywheel than a stock or Fidanza/ACT unit).

*Follow the installations and torque specifications for each specific unit.

This should be enough for you to have a professional build you a transmission and clutch to fulfill your needs (as long as they are shimming the transmission for the proper preloads/end play), such as TRE ( WELCOME TO TRE## WE SPECIALIZE IN MANUAL TRANSMISSION REPAIR ), Shep (SHEPTRANS.com - Home) or JacksTransmissions (www.jackstransmissions.com). I am only building local people's transmissions currently, and am not in competition with these major shops that know what they are doing.

As well, I would reccomend having a new set of Raxles RACE front axles ordered from Marty at Raxles.com ( Raxles - Raxles Home )-- call him and tell him that I sent you, and that you are looking for the RACE version. He has lifetime warranty -- free replacement no matter what happens to them, and they are extremely inexpensive, high quality axles. He also has excellent customer service and can ship very quickly.

Finally, I would reccomend high quality motor mounts at all four locations. The Energy suspension or Prothane full-bushing replacements for the driver side and passenger side are requirements with our cars. For the front and rear mounts, the solid aluminum replacements ( http://www.dsmtuners.com/forums/bolt-tech/289588-solid-front-rear-aluminum-motor-mounts.html ) or a solid urethane replacement is very important in preventing wheel hop and front differential, transmission or axle damage.


This stuff should give you more insight into what it takes to hold the power that you are going to be making with as little potential for failure as possible, all while spending a reasonable amount of money that won't break the bank.

Good luck,

Tim Zimmer

Tim,

I can't say thanks enough for the advice... and don't worry about the a-hole thing, I apprecaite that more than candy coated B.S. I got the prothanes but now am going to have to hit up my machinest to make me some of those front and rear solid mounts, those looked so bad ass! He has a 5 axis and can probably hook my up with some, i'll have to see. Again thanks for the advice and I can't wait for 09, there will be rubber-a-smokin!

Ismael