Motor ran dry, teardown/rebuild

[Archer Fabrications]

Hi everyone, i just wanted to start a thread to document my second 4g63 tear down, but first tear down on my built race motor.

A little background:

Motor was built about 2011/beginning of 2012 and built very well by my friend jack who is a member on here but doesnt freeqient anymore. Anyway the motor has been kick ass, i choose a scat/mahle 9:1 combo on a stock crank and a .020 over bore. We used ACL race tri metal bearings for thr mains and rods, and had all ARP hardware. 14k miles later and a move to scottsdale arizona, all is great on my 6466 pushing about 38psi on e85 and things looked awesome on the tune, i was on the highway hitting a 3-4th gear pull when something popped and started smoking, oil pressure hit 0. Now i wasnt positive that was accurate in the moment due to almost hving yhe crank pulley cut the sensor wite off. But had to drive 10 minutes off the highway to get to a safe exit and place to park to examine the damage, turns out my magnus oil filter backed off leaving all my oil on the highway, by the time i got to my parking spot, the motor was knocking i knew it was done. Ive changed my oil every 750-1000 miles with valvoline conventional 20w50 And the last time i had added the magnus billet oil filter. Lesson learned, keep to the good ol' oem 92 filter, or a wix filter only for me. I'll never use the magnis billet filter again. So fast forward 4 weeks and pulling the motor and sticking it on the stand, pulling the oil pan and inspecting the bearings, here is what i find.

A few gold flakes in the pan, not mich was in the oil filter it looked pretty clean bit so did the oil pick up and mostly the pan as well.

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The rods werent blue and what i can see of the cylinder bores they look alright too.

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Heres what the rod bearings and crank journals look like
#4

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#4 rod journal

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#3 rod bearing is bad

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#3 rod journal is good

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#2 rod bearing is bad too

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#2 rod journal is good

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#1 rod bearing is good

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#1 rod journal is also good

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Now here is the fun one, here is the center thrust main bearing
Heres the journal which looks good

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And the accompanying bearing

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I havnt pulled the other main bearings yet, I'm not sure what to expect. This is far as ive gotten so far. I plan to re use the crank, probably upgrade rods and pistons and clean the block and head while I'm at it. Considering the crank still looks new id say the bearings did their job very well and i wont heaitate to use them again. What would you giys do next if this was your motor?
My current goals are 850whp with the 6466 on e85 and or 150+ mph traps and 9's. Looking to bulletproof the motor to be good to handle 1000whp. All input is appreciated.

 

[Tiki2777]

Wow man, sorry to hear she went boom, good luck on this build and definitely stay away from those filters!
I would still get that crank polished if you weren't planning on that already, so far she does look much better than I would have expected. Makes me content that I chose acl tri metals as well. I'm not an expert on the rods, but if I were you I would get those checked out with every possible angle/spec/tolerance because it ran dry and started knocking. If you were being super careful and meticulous on the rebuild you could try and salvage the oil pump if the tolerances check out but I wouldn't risk it. make sure your cams are clean and depending on if they saw trash polish those too, maybe also on the cam caps but that is somewhat dangerous territory with regard to staying within spec. The lifters may have crap in them too! To sum it up...cleancleanclean and do not skimp out on parts that need to be replaced (toss the oil coolers and replace). I didn't check but get the kiggly hla regulator and girdle (6 bolt only) if you don't have them. Hope that helps

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Wow man, sorry to hear she went boom, good luck on this build and definitely stay away from those filters!
I would still get that crank polished if you weren't planning on that already, so far she does look much better than I would have expected. Makes me content that I chose acl tri metals as well. I'm not an expert on the rods, but if I were you I would get those checked out with every possible angle/spec/tolerance because it ran dry and started knocking. If you were being super careful and meticulous on the rebuild you could try and salvage the oil pump if the tolerances check out but I wouldn't risk it. make sure your cams are clean and depending on if they saw trash polish those too, maybe also on the cam caps but that is somewhat dangerous territory with regard to staying within spec. The lifters may have crap in them too! To sum it up...cleancleanclean and do not skimp out on parts that need to be replaced (toss the oil coolers and replace). I didn't check but get the kiggly hla regulator and girdle (6 bolt only) if you don't have them. Hope that helps

Thanks for your reply!! I'm not too worried about the head, ive got parts for it that have been waiting to go in, such as: BC stage3 276/276 (same ones @keltalon have. BC adjustable cam gears, and BC dual valve springs. New topline 3g lifters and new timing components in a box that have been sitting for over a year. I do agree on oil pump, I'll probably get a new one of those just to be safe, i have to send the turbo off to PTE to make sure the bearings are good in there too, anything else i should not re-use? In running the 99 oil filter sandwich plate as the cooler.

 

[DSM_GSX01]

Oh man I'm sorry bout your build. Let me know if there is anything I can do to input on next build. Sorry man

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Oh man I'm sorry bout your build. Let me know if there is anything I can do to input on next build. Sorry man

Input is welcome! The car won't be up and running for a while at this rate. I'm doing the rebuild myself for the first time and still need to find a reputable machinist to clean and inspect the 6 bolt. In the mean time I'm trying to figure out how I'm gonna get a 10pt cage, tube front rad support, and a bay respray.

 

[Type1DSMr]

Good luck with the rebuild. I've been following your thread for awhile now. Sucks to hear about the Magnus oil filter failing, at least now I know not to use one . Can't wait to see her back running again!

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Good luck with the rebuild. I've been following your thread for awhile now. Sucks to hear about the Magnus oil filter failing, at least now I know not to use one . Can't wait to see her back running again!

The sad thing was i was just getting up to that 750 mile oil change mark where i was going to check the filter..... The other sad thing is it didn't stay on for more then that. The filter was still on the stud, but it backed off enough to dump it all in 30 seconds. When i parked and needed to get the car on the trailer before i knew what was wrong, i filled the car with oil again to drive it on the trailer and it dumped it all again in about 30 seconds, thats when i knew it was the oil filter. Honestly the o ring is super thin compaed to the oem and wix filters, so I'll stick with those from now on.

 

[maximum9898]

I wouldn't blame the magnus oil filter, I've seen two friends that don't run magnus filters have them twist off. I know for sure one was a K&N and the other i'm not positive on. Its the balance shaft delete, solid motor mounts, making high hp, and various other things that play into the filter twisting off. You gotta wire the filter on for this reason, you might have the same thing happen with a wix, oem, or any brand at that matter.. I love my magnus oil filter and will never run any other filter!!

 

[Type1DSMr]

The sad thing was i was just getting up to that 750 mile oil change mark where i was going to check the filter..... The other sad thing is it didn't stay on for more then that. The filter was still on the stud, but it backed off enough to dump it all in 30 seconds. When i parked and needed to get the car on the trailer before i knew what was wrong, i filled the car with oil again to drive it on the trailer and it dumped it all again in about 30 seconds, thats when i knew it was the oil filter. Honestly the o ring is super thin compaed to the oem and wix filters, so I'll stick with those from now on.

That is sad that the o-ring is really thin and didn't seal correctly. You would think that is would be made for race cars with BSE and solid motor mounts and be strong enough to withstand it. That's why I only run trusty OEM ones with Brad Penn oil, love the combo.

 

[miliman13]

Honestly it looks really good. I expected carnage. The crank looks solid and the rods look like they did not suffer past max heat capacity. Not that you will; but you could just polish crank and get be bearings... Look forward to see more.

 

[mitsu-man]

This also could have happened due to high oil pressure. If you haven't already done this I would recommend doing the OFH porting mod, and the 7 bolt head oil supply porting/mod.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/oil-pressure-relief-valve-porting.319342/
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.341028/

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Honestly it looks really good. I expected carnage. The crank looks solid and the rods look like they did not suffer past max heat capacity. Not that you will; but you could just polish crank and get be bearings... Look forward to see more.

You wouldnt get the block cleaned out? I thought it looked good considering the knock i was hearing, then again i still havnt pulled the other 4 mains. I think itll be safer to dissassemble and clean.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

This also could have happened due to high oil pressure. If you haven't already done this I would recommend doing the OFH porting mod, and the 7 bolt head oil supply porting/mod.
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/oil-pressure-relief-valve-porting.319342/
http://www.dsmtuners.com/threads/4g63t-head-oil-port-mod.341028/

Ive got the oil port mod and ported ofh, ive never had an issue in the pst with oil filters. Just this one. My oil psi was never above 85-90. I do have polly mounts and a balance shaft delete but like i said hvnt ever had this problem before. I'm not really set on pissing and moaning about the filter, it's a lesson learned and I'll probably wire up the wix when it's running just to be sure this never ever happens again. I'm lookin forword to figuring how to get this back up and running with stronger rods and pistons i think. I'm considering leaving the rods but will probably buy turbo tuff's

 

[Tiki2777]

Thanks for your reply!! I'm not too worried about the head, ive got parts for it that have been waiting to go in, such as: BC stage3 276/276 (same ones @keltalon have. BC adjustable cam gears, and BC dual valve springs. New topline 3g lifters and new timing components in a box that have been sitting for over a year. I do agree on oil pump, I'll probably get a new one of those just to be safe, i have to send the turbo off to PTE to make sure the bearings are good in there too, anything else i should not re-use? In running the 99 oil filter sandwich plate as the cooler.

Honestly man it's up to you, I would maybe do some analyzing on what caused the failure, what led to that, prevention, the works.. The sandwich plate I'm not a huge fan of especially since you will be making much bigger power than I do, I'd recommend extremepsi's B&M kit with a junkyard 90 OFH, gives you more oil cap too! The oil filter issue is odd, I literally have never even heard of wiring one on, but in my experience with a poly engine mount and BSE, I hand tight and then turn the filter a little more, and then removal still requires a filter wrench! Something fishy there considering I haven't adjusted/modified the filter housing or spring, just head port mod and restrictor to turbo oil line. (engine shakes the heck out of the accessory area too, definite vibration there). L19s/H11s at this point possibly with a cometic/HKS HG or hell the permatorque has not failed yet has it?

Same goes for the rotating assembly, if the parts check out, maybe you test their limits? maybe you build it bigger? I currently have my own rebuild a hair under 5k miles, with no real goal in mind except maybe testing the limits of a 52mm H1c, so my last bit of advice is if anything goes wrong (while driving her again i.e. no oil pressure/getting VERY hot) is to shut it down tow it immediately and do not start her again until you know the issue and have fixed it. It's the same thing that blew up my engine, just trying to get it home/on the truck.

Good Luck, and please document as much as you feel like. The only great guides we have is Jafromobile, which was my bible for my personal rebuild.

 

[keltalon]

Dag sorry to see this happens! Let me know if I can help in any kind of way!!

 

[oneslowwdsm]

Sucks man, I would be livid if I blew my motor due to a stupid oil filter but don't feel so bad mine have come loose a couple of times (Mobile 1, amsoil) and actually the big 30mm nut holding the housing came loose before as well. Luckily I caught them just in time.

Motor mounts and BSE play a huge roll in things coming loose, especially in daily driven cars. I try REASONABLY over torquing everything I can and checking stuff from time to time. Good luck with the new build.

 

[Lazyboy]

I always torque the crap out of my oil filters just to be safe. I have always used oem mitsubishi oil filters and never had a problem. Sorry to hear this happened.

 

[donniekak]

It seems for no rhyme or reason that some cars like to back off filters while others stay tight for miles of high rpm vibration. I'd invest in a safety wire setup for the oil filter on whatever you plan to do.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

For the record the filter stud is still tight, i can show you guys how small ghe o ring is on the magnus. But I'm not gonna worrie about it, personal prefrence now is to not use it.

As for the permatorque, it has been fine except i think i lifted the head a few times on the standard arp's without knowing it. Lol definately L19's or 1/2" next go around

Thanks for all your kind words everyone! I'll keep this oage updated as i get to it, slowly but surely and of course with pictures!

Ive never actually seen how the saftey wire works, any pictures anyone has? Do you drill the filter or something sketchy?

@donniekak any reputable/trustworthy machinists you prefer in the east vally that would know a 4g? I'd consider them doing an assembily but I'd rather on my own for learning experience reasons. This definately isnt the last time I'll be doing a rebuild hahaha

 

[donniekak]

I usually use west valley machinists. However, I have had good experiences using automotive machine of Scottsdale for some specialty work.

You can always use k&n filters. They come pre-drilled for safety wire. Or, you can tighten a clamp around the filter and safety wire from the clamp.

 

[1990TSIAWDTALON]

Dam Kyle that sucks! I had the same type of thing happen to my little red Talon during Christmas. Got out on the highway, in front of a line of cars, ran through 1,2 and 3rd and saw a reasonable amount of smoke come out of the tail of the car. I looked down and saw the oil pressure gauge plummet to zero so I shut it off immediately and coasted to a near side road. Checked out the situation and could tell I had a massive oil leak so I dumped 2 qts of oil in her and fired her back up and still no pressure. I had blown out the o-ring on my oil filter that was on 2 hand tight as possible. Towed her home and watched the video I happened to be taking and my oil light flickered once before I got it shut off. So far.....the only thing I have hurt is my turbo journals which I will have Justin fix for me. It was an almost brand new HX40 with maybe 200 miles on it but it has shaft play now from the motor running to 7000 (which wasn't near the 8750 red line) and then being starved of oil. I now put my filters on with a wrench and I too have solid mounts and BSE and run around 80-90 psi. With all of that there is a lot of vibrations going on. I am now making it a point to check the filter anytime I have the hood up, and since it's a DSM that is frequent. Good to know that the K&N has a way to wire those suckers on. I wish you the best and the crank didn't look bad on your pictures, hope you can save it all and get it back together soon! I am knocking on wood and hoping nothing else creeps up on me too!

 

[Archer Fabrications]

I usually use west valley machinists. However, I have had good experiences using automotive machine of Scottsdale for some specialty work.

You can always use k&n filters. They come pre-drilled for safety wire. Or, you can tighten a clamp around the filter and safety wire from the clamp.

id go to the west vally too, i work off 75th and I10 which ever you have had most success with I'll go to.

 

[Archer Fabrications]

Dam Kyle that sucks! I had the same type of thing happen to my little red Talon during Christmas. Got out on the highway, in front of a line of cars, ran through 1,2 and 3rd and saw a reasonable amount of smoke come out of the tail of the car. I looked down and saw the oil pressure gauge plummet to zero so I shut it off immediately and coasted to a near side road. Checked out the situation and could tell I had a massive oil leak so I dumped 2 qts of oil in her and fired her back up and still no pressure. I had blown out the o-ring on my oil filter that was on 2 hand tight as possible. Towed her home and watched the video I happened to be taking and my oil light flickered once before I got it shut off. So far.....the only thing I have hurt is my turbo journals which I will have Justin fix for me. It was an almost brand new HX40 with maybe 200 miles on it but it has shaft play now from the motor running to 7000 (which wasn't near the 8750 red line) and then being starved of oil. I now put my filters on with a wrench and I too have solid mounts and BSE and run around 80-90 psi. With all of that there is a lot of vibrations going on. I am now making it a point to check the filter anytime I have the hood up, and since it's a DSM that is frequent. Good to know that the K&N has a way to wire those suckers on. I wish you the best and the crank didn't look bad on your pictures, hope you can save it all and get it back together soon! I am knocking on wood and hoping nothing else creeps up on me too!

Thanks for your reply! I hope my pte turbo didn't get starved, i was thinking about sending it in for inspection but i didn't boost at all after the loss of pressure. No shaft play, just paranoia it's probably fine cause it's ballbearing but there wqs also gold flakes in the oil.

 

[donniekak]

Do you run a filter on the turbo oil feed?

 

[babyviper]

Those bearings don't even look that bad, I'm suprised it knocked. Did any of them spin? If your going to be using the same crank over again I would be extremely particular about clearances. I'd use a dial bore gauge and quality micrometer to do the measurements. If you are not assembling it yourself make sure the assembler using this method and not a Plastigage. Plastigage is a good method but not if you want it to be perfect.
Secondly, for an 800-1000hp build I would run wiseco HD and Manley I beams. If you are comfortable with an aluminum rod I'd go with the FFWD rods. As far as the head goes, you need L19 at a minimum, I'm a fan of the OEM MLS but English racing swears by o-ringing the head for over 700hp but who knows.