Low HP and Torque on a 50 trim

[Wildt267]

SO i dynoed my car and damn near broke down in tears. At 22psi I only got 264awhp at 6400, and 238 ft lbs at 5400. For the sheet check the pictures in my profile. It's on a 8.5:1 built short block with a PTE 50 trim bb internally gated turbo. What's up? It was on a Mustang dyno, I know they read lower but... I read about many people who run better than that on a e316G. Any ideas of what i am doing wrong? THe shop that dynoed it said the winter formulation gas was holding me back. I called up Slowboy (whom I bought the turbo from) and the shopmanager told me he was running 400whp on a similiar setup. I am getting plenty of fuel(low 11's), and running the AEM EMS in speed density with 2.5" piping. I don't see airflow being a problem. I am running stock cams. Is it possible they would be holding me back that much. Ok, with all that being said, I throw myself at your mercy. Be brutal it you have to, what do you guys think is wrong?
P.S. Compression 160 across the board, 4% leakdown. I do get white/grey/blueish smoke under load. My mechanic said it could be excess fuel washing out the oil from my cylinder walls. Thanks for any help you guys can give.

 

[dsm-onster]

I start of w/ the stock 1g timing map (i have DSMLink, so that's easy) and give it a little timing until i see knock. But first i get a good consistant 11-11.5:1 fuel curve throughout the rpm range. I add timing a few degrees (around 3 or so) at a time and then tweek my fuel curve. A good lean burn will shorten yoru spool time a bit, too.

Your timing curve may be GREATLY advanced. Like someone dropped in an n/a like timing curve (like a honda w/ a turbo swap). Then just richened the fuel map until there was no knock and called it a day. A 50-trim w/ the proper turbine should be more than livable on the street. It should be downright fun. A bit more linear power band than an evo3 16g but should reach full bost at 3500-3900 rpms.

Try matching a stock fuel curve and stock timing curve and go from there. Remember a lean burn will give power and decrease spool time a bit. From my experience, advancing the timing from the base map will not increase lag significantly and you'll get knock before you feel a sharp increase in lag if you're running a good air/fuel ratio.

 

[GVR4592]

His timing map looks like an Evo map with 5-8 degrees pulled out of it. I definitely wouldn't pull any more timing, the lack of timing advance is why the car isn't making any power.

I think you should look into doing a boost comp map, I would also put the cam gear back to 0 until you get the rough tuning done.

 

[Wildt267]

His timing map looks like an Evo map with 5-8 degrees pulled out of it. I definitely wouldn't pull any more timing, the lack of timing advance is why the car isn't making any power.

I think you should look into doing a boost comp map, I would also put the cam gear back to 0 until you get the rough tuning done.

I already tried putting the cam position back to stock but the spool was so horrible I couldn't take it. I was just thinking about giving boost comp a try. What do I have to lose. Let me clarify about the timing. I was only pulling some from where the turbo begins to spool. I'm trying to get the car to respond like a car again, and not like a stock turbo diesel, if you know what i mean. I have a question about what the air temp fuel trim table is used for. In speed density the ems takes pressure and air temp data, then calculates airflow right? Then why do you need the air temp fuel trim? Do add extra fuel when air temps are very high to suppress detonation?
Thanks for the advice

 

[selmerguy]

What did your timing curve look like on your dyno pull. How much timing did you have at each rpm point? To me if your afr's are good the key s timing. Since you are running a SD setup boost leaks wont hurt you near as much as a maf setup. Try to get a good timing curve. That is the secret for big numbers. Timing and AFR.

About this shop. I know if I was paying to get my car dynoed there is no way I would let them do it by them self. I dont care who they are. I would want to be in the room and have input as far as the tuning goes. There is no black art to tuning. And there are millions of different setups to tune with. The bottom line is you need to be there!!! Good luck with your car and I hope you get it figured out.

 

[wt71gas]

Did not know this! is it possible that a muffed drag coefficient or another drag coefficient used to calculate wind resistance of another body threw the dyno of by say 80-120 hp?

Likely there would be other botched input variables too, since this reading is so low, right? Perhaps a few bad numbers plugged into the dyno computer and a conservative tune leads to a disappointign number. . .

I'd take it to the track and get the 1320 mph and calculate the hp w/ one of those online hp calculators. . .

They did show three runs, all were within a few horsepower of eachother. I am aware that Mustang's read lower. I was hoping for 300-350 at the wheels. The turbo can support a max of 490 right? The tuner is supposed to be good. They have a 1300whp shop Supra tuned by them, as well as several other high horsepower shop cars. The guy even owned an Evo, although he just got it, so he may be unfamiliar with the motor.

You would know by the feel of your car if the numbers are accurate. We had a guy come into the shop with a dodge diesel pickup and when we ran it on the mustang dyno he came up about 180hp less than before at the other "diesel" shop. He was wondering why and it was because he had punched it in as a 1/2 ton truck, 2x4, and a gas engine. That changes a lot as far as mustang is concerned. If your tuner put in your calculations for a fwd or the wrong motor it will give you lower readings because it doesn't think you should have as much drivetrain loss or weight (whatever the case may be). Check your printout and see if the weight and HP@50 are on there. If so post them and I can check them against the copy I have.

Hope that helps and sorry it took so long to post; I lost track of the thread

 

[Wildt267]

You would know by the feel of your car if the numbers are accurate. We had a guy come into the shop with a dodge diesel pickup and when we ran it on the mustang dyno he came up about 180hp less than before at the other "diesel" shop. He was wondering why and it was because he had punched it in as a 1/2 ton truck, 2x4, and a gas engine. That changes a lot as far as mustang is concerned. If your tuner put in your calculations for a fwd or the wrong motor it will give you lower readings because it doesn't think you should have as much drivetrain loss or weight (whatever the case may be). Check your printout and see if the weight and HP@50 are on there. If so post them and I can check them against the copy I have.

Hope that helps and sorry it took so long to post; I lost track of the thread

Weight : 2900 lb
HP @ 50mph : 10

It feels slower than when I had tuned it previously. I never saw knock. I had actually thought my knock sensor was bad. The shop said knock was the limiting factor and that in fact the knock sensor was responding. I am going to play with the timing map a little more today. This time I'm going to increase it incrementally until i see a hint of knock.
Thanks for your help by the way. As far as shops messing up the inputs there is a shop in my area that has been known to do that. Pretty embarrassing.

 

[wt71gas]

Weight : 2900 lb
HP @ 50mph : 50

It feels slower than when I had tuned it previously. I never saw knock. I had actually thought my knock sensor was bad. The shop said knock was the limiting factor and that in fact the knock sensor was responding. I am going to play with the timing map a little more today. This time I'm going to increase it incrementally until i see a hint of knock.
Thanks for your help by the way. As far as shops messing up the inputs there is a shop in my area that has been known to do that. Pretty embarrassing.

I can't find my list at the moment (got a new computer) but if I remember correctly the weight looks good but the HP@50 should be somewhere around 12 or 13. I'm sure that is part of the problem but you can also tell seat of the pants. I'll post in here as soon as I can find the sheet so we can get the exact number. I know its way lower than 50 though

 

[Wildt267]

Whoops, that 50 is a typo. In actuallity it was 10 hp. I have already edited the original post.

 

[10's or bust]

First off I'm new to mitsubishi but not tuning and putting together things that work but to me I would first put everything back to base including the cam timing and working my way up from there...at least that way u don't have a million questions to ask at once...Start off by checking the various sensors and make sure they are functioning properly also never seen any thing where u checked to see if your present tuneup is up to par since the tune...also check the condition of the plugs they don't lie...If the shop was rough on the engine when trying to get it tuned then it is very possible that they fried a plug, plug wire, or two, etc..check the basics first then go for the gusto!!!!

 

[10's or bust]

U need more fuel to get the turbo spooling quicker ever notice when the car is running rich the turbo spools harder and faster even though it may not be making any more power, then rducing the injected milla pulses up to just below2700-2980rpms form idle to about 3000rpm 6and 3/4"-7"base timing is all U need..advancing it to much is goona hurt the power in this range....form 3000rpms on up then(U need a stock map to compare it to but from idle pretty much to about 4100rpms about 1/4 to 1/2 throttle is where the stock map shines (U need data logging software also)) next comes the hard part may take a little but the only way to tune it is by conversions u have to convert over the tables and maps using percentages... {The stock maps are among the best b/c they've aready elimated all the guess work but were intentionally left off to limit power, efficiency, and to conserve engine longivity...} first calculate to the variables learned during testing...try to pm or email me for help this odviously a bigger discussion than I be able to post just pm for contact details or further help with this.....

 

[dsm-onster]

U need more fuel to get the turbo spooling quicker ever notice when the car is running rich the turbo spools harder and faster even though it may not be making any more power,

No, I have not noticed that. I have infact confirmed the opposite. Leaning out greatly increases the heat of the gasses exiting the cylinder. This in turn greatly shortens spooltime as the much higher velocity particles are applying more pressure to the turbine blades, getting more work done earlier. This is why even the little bit of heat increase in the header and turbine housing by wrapping or applyign a heat shield can be noticable.

This additional heat is much more effective than trying to simply increase the mass of particles entering the exhaust manifold. Besides, richening up lowers horsepower or "torque over time". This slows how rapid an engine races throught the rev range and that lowers the mass per minute. This would have a negative affect on spool. Couple that to low EGTs and you more than cancel any positive affect of a supposedly higher mass mixture. If you want more mass to spool your turbo go to a stroker or increase the early rpm VE (degreeing cams, tubular exhaust mani).

 

[Turboeagletalon]

yea i agree. the only person i would trust is myself. if there not going to allow you to watch or be involved. YOU DON'T NEED THEM!!!

do your reserch and learn to do it your self. look at allot of the tuners on this site. they did it just that way. and there cars are fast as f--k

 

[Wildt267]

Look, I am starting to get weary from many of you telling me what I should have done. Yes, your're right, I should have left when I found they wouldn't let me be invoved. If you read the beginning of the thread you would know I was there with a friend, on his reccomendation. I trust him, he insisted they were good at what they do, and has spent a lot of time with them. He was the one that pushed me to dyno it. Months and months of hearing about it. I finally caved. Lessons learned, can we put that part of the discussion to bed now? I disagree with the comment about richer = faster spool. Heat = energy, the more heat, the more chemical energy is converted to kinetic energy in the form of movement of the turbine shaft. I read something the AEM engineers wrote about engines always being happier in the 12-13 afr (gasoline) range. WHich is true, they run smoother, but not with more power. Unless you were referring to adding fuel AND retarding timing, which does indeed help the turbo to spool by stretching out combustion al the way out to the turbine housing. Whew, that was a helluva rant wasn't it?
The whole point of this thread was to confirm that I wan't crazy, and with my car's current setup I should produce more power than it did. You guys have done that. Now it's all about figuring out where the problem lies and fixing it. Hopefully when it's all said and done this thread will be of help to others.

yea i agree. the only person i would trust is myself. if there not going to allow you to watch or be involved. YOU DON'T NEED THEM!!!

do your reserch and learn to do it your self. look at allot of the tuners on this site. they did it just that way. and there cars are fast as f--k

 

[wt71gas]

Whoops, that 50 is a typo. In actuallity it was 10 hp. I have already edited the original post.

That is close enough. It might be off a few hp but thats just a minor deal.

 

[Wildt267]

That is close enough. It might be off a few hp but thats just a minor deal.

Thanks for double checking.
I added about 20% to the timing map from 3k rpms to redline. After initially removing timing I can appreciate the power power gain from adding more back in. Turbo kicks in just a little slower but the power made before and during spool up more than makes up for it. No knock so I'm going to push it a little more.

 

[dsm-onster]

No knock so I'm going to push it a little more.

That's the jist of tuning, IMHO. You're going to get it down just fine. Mainly becasue you're not afraid to go in there and mess w/ the EMS.

What a rant!

 

[nightspeed87]

Considering you have good compression, minor boost leaks, and a decent amount of parts, it is most definitly the tune as has been concluded to.
Aem sounds pretty complicated, for simplicity i personally just run a keydiver chip, but you have the opportunity of making a LOT more power w/ the ems.
So i would say just keep pushing it to the limit of knock as Dsm-onster suggested.
Once the tune is dead on, then ( from what you told us ) deal w/ your next bottle neck which would be the cams. Make sure the entire engine is up to par with the turbo in means of flow to achieve the best results out of your 50trim. Your only as strong as your weakest link...

 

[GVR4592]

Can you email me the new map with the changes you made and a list of any problems you're having? Like startup issue's, idle issues, bogging, anything like that.

 

[Wildt267]

Added another 20% to the timing map from 3k on. Good power, i actually got the tires to spin. It was almost like having my big16G back. Still no knock... There is a local shop that has a 4wd dynojet, after i get it running like it should I think I will slap it on there and see what the power is like.

 

[Wildt267]

Can you email me the new map with the changes you made and a list of any problems you're having? Like startup issue's, idle issues, bogging, anything like that.

Absolutely, just give me a bit, thanks.
Edit: Email sent!

 

[twicks69]

I would recalibrate the O2 sensor first. Then check it to another sensor.

Next, simple stuff... did you have fresh oil, spark plugs, and transmission and differentials with fresh fluids in them prior to the dyno?

Can you e-mail me your .cal and .log files you are currently running?

I could not get your "word" document to change over to a .cal file for me to read it.

If you send me a copy of your tune and a log of a full boost pull in 3rd gear, I may be able to better help you. Are you running knock retard? What are you running for ignition timing at peak boost across the board? Are you running a boost comp map, a hybrid boost comp, or a regular map?

What specific mustang dyno were you using?

Have you had any problems lately with your cam position sensor?

What spark plugs are you using? You should be using NGKBPR7ES or BR7ES gapped at .028".

Have you had any head gasket issues? What are your head studs torqued to? Have you re-torqued them since you installed them? Are you pushing coolant at all?

Since you already answered the fuel pump question, then are you still on stock fuel lines? Stock fuel pressure regulator?

Pictures also speak a thousand words -- if you could, please take and post several engine bay pictures showing the entire engine bay.

Why don't we start here before telling you what to purchase.

The best investments are new widebands, good gas, and fresh spark plugs. You already got the wideband.

Which intake manifold are you using?

Also with the boost leak testing...did you use a smoke tester, or just pressurize the system?

 

[Wildt267]

I would recalibrate the O2 sensor first. Then check it to another sensor.

Next, simple stuff... did you have fresh oil, spark plugs, and transmission and differentials with fresh fluids in them prior to the dyno?

Can you e-mail me your .cal and .log files you are currently running?

I could not get your "word" document to change over to a .cal file for me to read it.

If you send me a copy of your tune and a log of a full boost pull in 3rd gear, I may be able to better help you. Are you running knock retard? What are you running for ignition timing at peak boost across the board? Are you running a boost comp map, a hybrid boost comp, or a regular map?

What specific mustang dyno were you using?

Have you had any problems lately with your cam position sensor?

What spark plugs are you using? You should be using NGKBPR7ES or BR7ES gapped at .028".

Have you had any head gasket issues? What are your head studs torqued to? Have you re-torqued them since you installed them? Are you pushing coolant at all?

Since you already answered the fuel pump question, then are you still on stock fuel lines? Stock fuel pressure regulator?

Pictures also speak a thousand words -- if you could, please take and post several engine bay pictures showing the entire engine bay.

Why don't we start here before telling you what to purchase.

The best investments are new widebands, good gas, and fresh spark plugs. You already got the wideband.

Which intake manifold are you using?

Also with the boost leak testing...did you use a smoke tester, or just pressurize the system?

Lot of questions, so here we go.
Installed brand new wideband sensor day before the dyno. The two different sensors seemed to agree. The new one seemed qucker to respond to changes.
Stock fuel pressure regulator. I was just reading a thread about how that might account for my poor idle.
Stock intake manifold.
Plugs were a month old, my local guy came with me to the dyno and instructed them to put in a fresh set, they didn't of course. I run BPR7es's with .028 gap.
Cam position sensor replaced with a new factory one 3 months prior.
Kncok control is on, with the table linear from zero to 2.00 volts at 7500 rpm. I believe the "tuner" said he brought that down to 1.6 volts. That's reminds me I better double check that. ..
I did have some bluish white smoke at higher cylinder pressures. I thought it was the HG but one of the raditors tubes was punctured and spraying coolant towards the air filter. New radiator, no more white smoke, just bluish black.
I did not check/ retorque the head studs since the motor was put together. My local guy did a compression and leakdown, things were fine.
I can't post .cal files, forum won't let me, that's why I changed the extension. I can't post in the tuning section yet either, can I email it?
Don't know the dyno model number, doesn't say anything on the print out. Website only has a picture of it. It was a 4wd model...

 

[GVR4592]

I would recalibrate the O2 sensor first. Then check it to another sensor.

Next, simple stuff... did you have fresh oil, spark plugs, and transmission and differentials with fresh fluids in them prior to the dyno?

Can you e-mail me your .cal and .log files you are currently running?

I could not get your "word" document to change over to a .cal file for me to read it.

If you send me a copy of your tune and a log of a full boost pull in 3rd gear, I may be able to better help you. Are you running knock retard? What are you running for ignition timing at peak boost across the board? Are you running a boost comp map, a hybrid boost comp, or a regular map?

What specific mustang dyno were you using?

Have you had any problems lately with your cam position sensor?

What spark plugs are you using? You should be using NGKBPR7ES or BR7ES gapped at .028".

Have you had any head gasket issues? What are your head studs torqued to? Have you re-torqued them since you installed them? Are you pushing coolant at all?

Since you already answered the fuel pump question, then are you still on stock fuel lines? Stock fuel pressure regulator?

Pictures also speak a thousand words -- if you could, please take and post several engine bay pictures showing the entire engine bay.

Why don't we start here before telling you what to purchase.

The best investments are new widebands, good gas, and fresh spark plugs. You already got the wideband.

Which intake manifold are you using?

Also with the boost leak testing...did you use a smoke tester, or just pressurize the system?

Here's his cal file, I haven't had time to fix it yet. You'll see it's a real mess.

http://home.comcast.net/~mygvr4/current_workmap.V1.19.cal

 

[Wildt267]

Since I'm in the process of retuning anyway I am considering putting in some cams. I noticed those Brian Crower sets are back in stock everywhere at a very reasonable price. What do you guys think? Especially those with BC cams installed on setup similiar to mine. I believe my excessive lag is an issue I can tune out but I really don't want to lose too much bottom end. So i'm thinking the 272 combo. Whadaya think? I've heard good and bad about those cams.

 

[Wildt267]

Installed the Brian Crower 272 cam set. I was uable to degree them so they went in straight up. I noticed quite a loss in low end power. I added 5 degrees of timing into the 1500-4000rpm range adn things felt a bit better, but we'll see. How far do you guys think I should have to spin the motor to really use the potential of these cams? I have Crower valve springs and Titanium retainers. It's a 2.0 liter, 6-bolt block, supposedly balanced(Got it from 4G63.com.) No balance shafts. I read somewhere that the balance shafts actually support something internal in the motor, and that will limit your actual safe rpm limit. Is this true?