Low HP and Torque on a 50 trim

[Wildt267]

SO i dynoed my car and damn near broke down in tears. At 22psi I only got 264awhp at 6400, and 238 ft lbs at 5400. For the sheet check the pictures in my profile. It's on a 8.5:1 built short block with a PTE 50 trim bb internally gated turbo. What's up? It was on a Mustang dyno, I know they read lower but... I read about many people who run better than that on a e316G. Any ideas of what i am doing wrong? THe shop that dynoed it said the winter formulation gas was holding me back. I called up Slowboy (whom I bought the turbo from) and the shopmanager told me he was running 400whp on a similiar setup. I am getting plenty of fuel(low 11's), and running the AEM EMS in speed density with 2.5" piping. I don't see airflow being a problem. I am running stock cams. Is it possible they would be holding me back that much. Ok, with all that being said, I throw myself at your mercy. Be brutal it you have to, what do you guys think is wrong?
P.S. Compression 160 across the board, 4% leakdown. I do get white/grey/blueish smoke under load. My mechanic said it could be excess fuel washing out the oil from my cylinder walls. Thanks for any help you guys can give.

 

[boosted95clipse]

Im really doubting it will be loosing 40 horsepower. Maybe you can go into detail why it would loose that much?

Well FWD loses between 10 and 15% hp from the crank, and AWD loses between 20 and 25% hp from the crank so if we are both putting 415 at the crank then he would have less at the wheels.

 

[Wildt267]

Im really doubting it will be loosing 40 horsepower. Maybe you can go into detail why it would loose that much?

Simple physics. Friction in the drivetrain. Energy gets dissapated as heat. Fact of life
Boosted95Eclipse, where did you get your car dynoed?

 

[Wildt267]

Well FWD loses between 10 and 15% hp from the crank, and AWD loses between 20 and 25% hp from the crank so if we are both putting 415 at the crank then he would have less at the wheels.

In terms of similiar setups, I think all we have in common is the turbo. Reading your profile suggest you are still employing a MAF. I also have a ported head. These modifications should allow me to eek out a little more power, especially up top.

 

[Wildt267]

Finaly did a boost leak test. Only leak we could find was at the throttle body shafts. Gues I'm gonna be changing some seals....

 

[Splitpi]

Finaly did a boost leak test. Only leak we could find was at the throttle body shafts. Gues I'm gonna be changing some seals....

Still, that doesn't explain that much power loss. Though it should be fixed at any rate.

Have you tried recalibrating your Wideband? Perhaps it has wondered... How does it read in comparison to the Dynos?

I believe it could be the tune most likely holding you back.

One last thing, I noticed you have 750 cc injectors... but what do you have driving them? Fuel pump, AFPR? Are they stock? If the Pump is stock, then I would say you 260 whp on the stock pump is damn good .

 

[dsm-onster]

Simple physics. Friction in the drivetrain. Energy gets dissapated as heat. Fact of life
Boosted95Eclipse, where did you get your car dynoed?

Physics:

1hp=746Watts. 20% of 500hp = 100hp. It's logical to conclude that it doesnot take 100 hp to turn the drive train itself (w/ no friction). Perhaps 30 hp. 70hp X 746 watts = 52,220watts of frictional heat in the transmission and drivetrain?WTF . . .

As a trend, drive train loss percentages drop as horsepower levels elevate. I doubt there's taht much loss at 300+ whp levels, too.

The above question of fuel supply is very good and would explain why the shop wouldn't be able to tune for more power.

Good to see that the boost leak test is out of the way . Good compression numbers too.

If you've upgraded your fuel pump, then its either a slipping clutch (they DO slip more as you rev through the rpm range) or the shop is way too conservative. . . or you have grabbing brakes .

Can't you go into your aem ems and put up a log or atleast take a look at their tune they did for you?

 

[Dream On]

I agree. I remember seeing a guy dyno a car AWD to about 505 ish hp and then put it in FWD (switchable Tcase I believe) and it only increased like 7 hp.

 

[wt71gas]

Mustang dyno's are complete garbage. Before i bought my DSM i dynoed my camaro with a 150hp nitrious shot and they told me it had 126whp and 326ftlbs... wft is that?! and when i told them its 100% wrong and complained they got mad and said that it was a new machine... NEVER USE THOSE JUNK DYNOS!! get that old gas out of your car and go to a good shop with a real dyno, i think youll be suprized at the results

Actually Mustange Dyno's are some of the best around. Just because the numbers are lower doesn't mean a thing. The accuracy and repeatability is what really matters. I think it is a little bit extreme of you to make a comment like that without obviously doing the appropraite research. Mustang Dyno is one of the only company to factor in a vehicles weight and wind resistance calculation for hp and tq totals. As you can imagine the old saying comes to mind:

A COMPUTER IS ONLY AS SMART AS THE GUY ENTERING THE DATA.

Basically if you had some jackass running the dyno who doesn't put in the right numbers, you will never get an accurate number out of it.

Must mean Mustang Dyno's are JUNK

 

[dsm-onster]

Mustang Dyno is one of the only company to factor in a vehicles weight and wind resistance calculation for hp and tq totals.

Did not know this! is it possible that a muffed drag coefficient or another drag coefficient used to calculate wind resistance of another body threw the dyno of by say 80-120 hp?

Likely there would be other botched input variables too, since this reading is so low, right? Perhaps a few bad numbers plugged into the dyno computer and a conservative tune leads to a disappointign number. . .

I'd take it to the track and get the 1320 mph and calculate the hp w/ one of those online hp calculators. . .

 

[DSM90AWD]

A bad tune can kill your dyno results. My first (only) dyno outing with my 50-trim I turned in a less than stellar 289WHP with stock cams @ 18psi but had crazy knock = crap timing , super lean AFRs (out of injector on my 550s) and horrible heatsoak of my FMIC due to poor cooling fans.

Swapped in new injectors and got knock / timing back in line and ran 112MPH my first track visit on same boost which equates to ~360WHP.

Tuning is everything. Try making some adjustments to AFR/Timing and compare back-to-back 70-90MPH times.

 

[SBstar]

I'm not much of a believer in dyno's anyways. Those who really know how to play with dyno's can make any setup reach an incredibly high or low number. For all we know your setup is fine and the dyno is the problem. Try a different dyno and see whats going on, or as said above go take it down the 1320 and figure it out from there. Not that I don't suggest looking over your setup for possible problems and an improper tune. I just wouldn't put all my faith into a dyno reading.

 

[dsm-onster]

"Duh" question. Does your car FEEL strong?

 

[Wildt267]

Still, that doesn't explain that much power loss. Though it should be fixed at any rate.

Have you tried recalibrating your Wideband? Perhaps it has wondered... How does it read in comparison to the Dynos?

I believe it could be the tune most likely holding you back.

One last thing, I noticed you have 750 cc injectors... but what do you have driving them? Fuel pump, AFPR? Are they stock? If the Pump is stock, then I would say you 260 whp on the stock pump is damn good .

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Fuel mods: Walbro 255 with 8-gauge wire from the battery. The tuner said there was plenty of fuel, they were just tuning to the limits of the winter formulation gas. The wideband question you posed was an excellent one. I wonder this myself. They didn't use their wideband. I have an AEM gauge type wideband which they tuned off. Before anyone asks, I put in a brand new sensor the day before. I didn't reset the gain, but they went off the guage display so that doesn't matter. As far as I know the bosch sensors are pre-calibrated, and can't be changed. My local tuner mechanic just got an innovate setup, we tried to double check my readings but my cigarette lighter wasn't wired up and we were lazy. I will definetly do this one of these times though.

 

[Wildt267]

"Duh" question. Does your car FEEL strong?

Not so much. Actually feels like it's got less punch then when I had tuned it.

 

[Wildt267]

Actually Mustange Dyno's are some of the best around. Just because the numbers are lower doesn't mean a thing. The accuracy and repeatability is what really matters. I think it is a little bit extreme of you to make a comment like that without obviously doing the appropraite research. Mustang Dyno is one of the only company to factor in a vehicles weight and wind resistance calculation for hp and tq totals. As you can imagine the old saying comes to mind:

A COMPUTER IS ONLY AS SMART AS THE GUY ENTERING THE DATA.

Basically if you had some jackass running the dyno who doesn't put in the right numbers, you will never get an accurate number out of it.

Must mean Mustang Dyno's are JUNK

They did show three runs, all were within a few horsepower of eachother. I am aware that Mustang's read lower. I was hoping for 300-350 at the wheels. The turbo can support a max of 490 right? The tuner is supposed to be good. They have a 1300whp shop Supra tuned by them, as well as several other high horsepower shop cars. The guy even owned an Evo, although he just got it, so he may be unfamiliar with the motor.

 

[Wildt267]

Did not know this! is it possible that a muffed drag coefficient or another drag coefficient used to calculate wind resistance of another body threw the dyno of by say 80-120 hp?

Likely there would be other botched input variables too, since this reading is so low, right? Perhaps a few bad numbers plugged into the dyno computer and a conservative tune leads to a disappointign number. . .

I'd take it to the track and get the 1320 mph and calculate the hp w/ one of those online hp calculators. . .

Yeah, that's a good idea! My local tuner drives cars for everybody at the local track. Everything from his 500 hp civic, to Dsm's to full out race cars and he told me my car felt like it could do high 12's, and that was back when I had a Big 16G. I have to fix a couple things before I get to the track though.

 

[Wildt267]

Physics:

1hp=746Watts. 20% of 500hp = 100hp. It's logical to conclude that it doesnot take 100 hp to turn the drive train itself (w/ no friction). Perhaps 30 hp. 70hp X 746 watts = 52,220watts of frictional heat in the transmission and drivetrain?WTF . . .

As a trend, drive train loss percentages drop as horsepower levels elevate. I doubt there's taht much loss at 300+ whp levels, too.

The above question of fuel supply is very good and would explain why the shop wouldn't be able to tune for more power.

Good to see that the boost leak test is out of the way . Good compression numbers too.

If you've upgraded your fuel pump, then its either a slipping clutch (they DO slip more as you rev through the rpm range) or the shop is way too conservative. . . or you have grabbing brakes .

Can't you go into your aem ems and put up a log or atleast take a look at their tune they did for you?

As far as the clutch goes I really hope they would catch that. I do remember the days when I had a Big 16G and a stock clutch. Couldn't give it anypower without frying the clutch. I have the Centerforce 2500lb clutch too, and I believe those grab better at higher rpms right?

 

[Wildt267]

I was just reading the faq at VFAQ about tb seal replacement and noticed a note about Phenolic spacers and how you really need to make sure the intake manifold is sealing properly due, as the added thickness makes this harder to accomplish. I will check this out as well.

 

[dsm-onster]

Well you already ran a boost leak test, right? A sealing issue at the intake will yield a boost leak.

 

[whiteflash]

Wildt267,

Just curious, did you take your car to Torque Freaks?

 

[Wildt267]

Well you already ran a boost leak test, right? A sealing issue at the intake will yield a boost leak.

Yeah, i guess your right about that. I was thinking that because it was after the throttle plate... my bad. No, I didn't take my car to torque freaks. They don't have the best reputation around here. I heard things from people that used to work there... and they wanted way to much to tune it.

 

[Wildt267]

Finally, the tuning... The dyno chart looks relatively smooth. It seems to spool up a little slower than I'd expect but the lines do look reasonable.
-Michael

I am glad you mentioned that. Since reading your post I began troubeshooitng that whole issue again. I previously gave up. Turns out it is how the AEM controls boost. It's no the most intuitive, and without error fb being set correctly and the gain increased significantly one would get slow spool. I just put in my old mbc and what a difference. Sigificant improvement in turbo responsiveness.

 

[GVR4592]

Can you post your AEM calibration file and a datalog of a 3rd gear run?

 

[400awhpgsx]

I was shocked when I read your first post! I have a similar setup to you and I made a sad 265 awhp on a dyno dynamics dyno. Now I know these dynos actually read a little lower than the mustang dyno, but I am having the same feeling as you...Must be a wacked up tune. I am planning on taking my car to a different place with the same dyno and having them retune it. I know it sucks having to pay for another tune, but I don't know what else to do. And like you, they never showed me much when they tuned it. I paid for an hour and it took them 15 mins.

My advice, take it to a different place and see what happends.

 

[EclipseSH21]

Might the shop be correct, and you need some fresh fuel?