Looking at buying a turbo...

[interex]

I'll be the first to admit I know nothing about turbochargers. I have been looking at different builds, and setups and looking at turbos here and there. I came across a brand new Garrett turbo that says A/R .65 .89 M-24 on it but I'm not too sure of what that means, or if it's a good size. How much horse power would this be good for? Would it work for my 2.3L stroker build?

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[iluvmy4g63]

first things first. do have the right manifold and down pipe set up? and oil lines? they offer so many bolt on turbo's these days it's some times the better way to go.

 

[D-Lock]

This is the info I found on Garrett Turbochargers. Hope This helps.
link to page TurboByGarrett.com - GT Basics / Nomenclature

GT Basics / Nomenclature

Today, Garrett has a wider selection of GT-series turbos available than ever before. As a result of this, please note that we have made a subtle modification to the GT nomenclature.

In our product catalog, all offerings are grouped according to their turbine wheel frame size. The frame size of a turbo or CHRA is dictated by its turbine wheel inducer diameter . The larger the turbine inducer, the bigger the frame size-- so any turbo in the GT42 family has a larger turbine wheel inducer than those in the GT35 family, and so on.

In the model name of each turbo or CHRA, you'll also notice two digits after the frame size. These two digits refer to the compressor exducer diameter, as measured in millimeters.

Let's use the GT4294 as an example. This unit has a GT42 frame size turbine coupled to a 94mm (exducer diameter) compressor wheel.

If there's an "R" on the end of a model name, this means the unit is ball bearing. So, a GT4294 is not ball bearing; whereas a GT4294R is ball bearing.

The biggest change related to the nomenclature is this: units which utilize a 53mm turbine wheel (as measured at the inducer) are now referred to as "GT25" frame size, while units employing the slightly larger 53.85mm turbine wheel are now referred to as "GT28" frame size.

For those familiar with our product range, this means that the unit formerly known as "the GT28R" (part number 466541-1) is now in the GT25R family. More specifically, it is now a GT2560R model.

A Guide To Garrett’s "GT" Model Numbers

GTxxyyzz:

* Positions "xx" refers to the frame size of the turbine wheel inducer.
o For example the "GT28" in "GT2860RS" refers to its turbine wheel frame size family. All GT28 units use a turbine wheel with 53.85mm inducer diameter
o As a rule of thumb, the larger the number, the larger the turbine wheel.
* Positions "yy" designate the compressor wheel exducer (major) diameter in millimeters
o The "60" in the GT2860RS example above has a 60mm compressor wheel exducer diameter.
o Note: Wheel sizes 100mm and over omit the "1" (hundreds digit)
o Example: the 02 in a GT4202 refers to its 102mm compressor wheel exducer diameter
* Positions "zz" may be used to designate special features of a particular turbocharger where applicable
o Example: GT2860RS
o "R" = this is a Ball Bearing unit
o "S" = used for units which require some differentiation from units in the same family
Compare a GT2860R to a GT2860RS. While both are ball bearing and externally similar, the GT2860RS is better suited for higher-flow applications than the GT2860R. In this case, the S reflects the higher-flowing nature of the GT2860RS

 

[interex]

I don't have a manifold yet so that wont hinder my turbo selection. I can buy the manifold that will work best with whatever turbo I buy. I just needed to know if this specific turbo was a good one, or if it was too big or too small.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

What are your goals?

 

[interex]

I'd like to make between 600-640hp. I have a pretty good start so far I believe.

I just bought a Stage VI head from SBR, with Crower 280s, a 90mm throttle body, Custom SMIM, I have a 2.3L rotating assembly, (no exhaust manifold or injectors yet)

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Your mod list says 2.0L motor with a 100mm crank? That would make it a 2.3L motor...

If you want 600-640, get a GT35r or HTA GT3582R and it will get you there safely.

 

[1gDSM4g63]

It's all up to you to decide if it's the right size. People with stroker usually go smaller turbo like the 16g or huge turbos. The M-24 I believe is a gt28 and it's mid-range in size. If your goals are 600-640 hp I'd look into the Holset HX40 or the BW S362 and S366. They're cheap the dual ball bearing with better spool time, more reliable and easily to rebuildable.

 

[interex]

I was thinking a GT35R or GT37R would be good. After reading many of the "dyno sheets"

 

[Boosted98gsx]

I was thinking a GT35R or GT37R would be good. After reading many of the "dyno sheets"

You're in the ballpark. The airflow you want is between 65lbs/min and 75 lbs/min. That's a 35R up to a 40R, which unfortunately use 2 different manifold and o2 setups.

 

[interex]

I figured I would buy my turbo first then worry about which manifold to buy, is that not a safe way to play?

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Well, a 40R is going to be LAAAGGGYYY and I wouldn't recommend it. I would stay in T3 for street use. In which case, for reliability, the ERL stainless cast manifold, or a shearerfab manifold for performance. Definately get a TiAl 44mm wastegate, and the A/R of the turbine housing and o2 are up to you, but I would recommend a .82 A/R t3 turbine, with a v-band out. Easy removal, and great performance, with no seized bolts.

But it's up to you, and your car.

 

[interex]

Well right now after buying this head I'm a little strapped so I might just have to wait a month or two before I can buy a turbo and manifold. Maybe I should look at getting injectors. *scratches head*

 

[Boosted98gsx]

Um yes, get your fuel / tuning setup ready for the turbo before you buy the turbo. MINIMUM 1000cc injectors for a 35R, or 1600's if you're running e85.

Tuning method, DSMlink, or AEM, but dsmlink for ease of use and drivability.

What fuel pump are you running?

 

[1gDSM4g63]

After you decide what turbo you're going with I'd look into the manifold and o2 housing setup prior to order the turbo. The bigger the turbo you go it is a lot of work find a custom fabricator to do your o2 housing and you'll have to reorganize the radiator, fans, and such to make the turbo fit.

 

[interex]

Um yes, get your fuel / tuning setup ready for the turbo before you buy the turbo. MINIMUM 1000cc injectors for a 35R, or 1600's if you're running e85.

Tuning method, DSMlink, or AEM, but dsmlink for ease of use and drivability.

What fuel pump are you running?

I'm running a MegaSquirt-I v3.0 setup by Paul at Symtech Labs for tuning/management.
I plan to buy 1000cc injectors already.
I was looking at a Bosch 300/lph inline pump actually, good or bad?

Time to go pick up my paycheck. Be back later.

 

[jhopps]

A few things you have to consider when picking your turbo with a stroked motor are 1)Do I want low to midrange spool times 2)How much boost I want to run safely(Anything more than 25PSI on a larger turbo means o-ringing the head or block)3)Do I want to spend the money now for a turbo that will last into my next level of mods.
Bigger turbos are great for top-end power, but lack in the lower RPM ranges(even with a smaller a/r0. You can run lower boost but make the same HP because of more volume than a smaller turbo at high boost settings. Use a GT42r with a .82-.100 a/r trim if you want the top-end power. If you get a smaller turbo, GT35r with an .82 trim(for this size turbo), you will have better spool even with the larger a/r because of the stroke. There are also plenty of good turbo's without ball bearing centers, just keep in mind that you will sacrifice spool time because of more friction(don't try to compensate for spool by going to a lower a/r because you'll sacrifice big at the top and not gain a lot down low).To make that kind of power though, you'll need a water/meth kit or have to run race gas. 1000cc injectors will be okay with a water/meth system, but you may need 1200's with the full race gas because of the burn differences. Also, I would use an external waste gate because you get better unrestricted flow from the turbine and can run a better fitting downpipe for clearances and run a 44mm wastegate. Also consider running two blow-off valves to make sure you keep surge under control at the top when you shift.The inline pump will be sufficient as long as you're running a 255 in-tank or bigger.

 

[interex]

Okay well I need to do a little bit of saving before I can start buying more stuff. But I do think I'm going to stick with either a GT35R or a GT37R. I think that will be the best for my build. And I know I have the head/intake/tb for it, now I just need an exhaust manifold to flow well also.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

A few things you have to consider when picking your turbo with a stroked motor are 1)Do I want low to midrange spool times 2)How much boost I want to run safely(Anything more than 25PSI on a larger turbo means o-ringing the head or block)

Wrong. You do not NEED to o-ring a head to run more than 25psi. I run 28 psi on the track with just ARP's on a 1g head and 6-bolt block. Please don't recommend things to someone if you're speculating on word of mouth information and not quantitative results.

To make that kind of power though, you'll need a water/meth kit or have to run race gas. 1000cc injectors will be okay with a water/meth system, but you may need 1200's with the full race gas because of the burn differences.

Wrong again. Pump gas is much more forgiving with larger wheeled turbochargers at higher boost levels. Larger compressor wheels make less turbulence and less heat at the same boost levels because the wheel is spinning more slowly. 25psi on a 16g vs 25psi on a GT35R are completely different post compressor air temp wise, which is what you need to be worried about when running pump gas for predetonation.

Meth injections aren't there for fuel purposes. Granted the meth is burned in the combustion chamber, but it's main purpose is to cool the air charge down, to make the pump gas volatility lower.

Also, wrong AGAIN! The reverse of what this retard said is true. 1000cc injectors will have a higher injector duty cycle on pump gas, than race gas, ultimately meaning that you can run more airflow on racegas for your fuel setup, than you can pump gas. You inject less gasoline using c16 than you do using pump gas to achieve the same a/f ratios, and because it's race gas, you can run leaner a/f ratios resulting in even LOWER injector duty cycles.

However, with Q16, you will need to inject more fuel than you would with pump gas, because of the increased amount of oxygen in the fuel.

Also, I would use an external waste gate because you get better unrestricted flow from the turbine and can run a better fitting downpipe for clearances and run a 44mm wastegate. Also consider running two blow-off valves to make sure you keep surge under control at the top when you shift.The inline pump will be sufficient as long as you're running a 255 in-tank or bigger.

More nonesense. An external gate is already a given using a turbo larger than 50 lbs/min. Hell I would run one on any turbo capable of 45lbs/min or higher. Integral gates are too prone to being blown open by pre-turbine exhaust pressures due to their lack of spring tension to keep the gates closed, and simplistic design to keep them small.

You will not need two blow off's until you're upwards of 70lbs/min. An HKS or single Tial will work just fine. Surge DOES NOT HAPPEN AT THE TOP OF AN RPM band. Compressor surge is due to your compressor overwhelming your engine in the low rpms with air, because the induction rate of the engine at that RPM is too low for the air to enter, so it goes backwards.

If you're surging at the top of your RPM band, you either picked a piss poor blow off valve, or have it "tightened" too much and that is keeping the piston from opening up far enough to release the gases. Keep your blow off valve between the throttlebody and intercooler and the air will be dense enough to avoid this.

For anything 60 lbs/min or larger, you will NEED at least a 255hp in tank supplying an external inline pump, or a large pump in tank, or dual walbros running in tank, in parallel.

 

[interex]

Boosted98gsx, I hear what you're saying and believe me I follow you. I'll probably get a GT35R and I feel that would be good for my 2.3L build. I will be using a walbro 255 in tank with probably a 300lph inline, that should supply well enough. Another one of my fears is getting my MegaSquirt wired up for the fuel, and using my DIS-2 for my spark. I've never had to mess with engine management before.

 

[Boosted98gsx]

DSMlink and coil on plugs coupled with the ARC-2 system, wired into the OEM spark system should be more than you'll ever need for engine management.

If you come across some cash, I would highly recommend the HTA comp wheels from FP. Well worth the investment for the billet aluminum shiny goodness of airflow magnitude. Less mass, more fin area equates to faster spinup, and more airflow across the RPM band. DEFINITELY get the .82 A/R turbine. You will see boost by 2k, and you will be at 20 psi before 4300 on a stroker. I LOVE my 35R HTA.

 

[interex]

I'm not going to use DSMLink. I don't have a reason to, or not to other than I'd like to play with MegaSquirt and if something ever happens and I decide to move on to something else I'll still have an engine management system I can take with me. I will stick with my MegaSquirt, my MSD DIS-2 (for the reason MSD exists...) and my MSD coil pack.

I've got way too much money invested into the MegaSquirt, and the DIS-2, anyway. I'd like to go to a COP setup, and even looked at some COP's for the 99-09 Mustang and making them work with the 4g63... (pic below)

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[1gDSM4g63]

Your really don't need to worry about ignition and COP. It may look cleaner but people have stay with stock and made 600 hp. You better handle getting up to 500 hp first. It is not as easy as one may think. When you get over 500 hp you'll happy for every hp you can extract out of the engine after that.

 

[murderd_91turbo]

Ok, here's a vid of a street driven DSM that will rock your socks and make you have a turboner! Many of you have probably seen this but it goes to show what the 4g63 is capable of.
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So keep up the money saving and soon you might beat that 600 hp mark.

 

[interex]

You better handle getting up to 500 hp first.

Why do you say 500 hp first? Is that not like me saying I want to go for 600 hp? If someone was to say they wanted to try and make 450 would you tell them they need to worry about 350 first? I set my goal, and I'm going to buy everything I need to build to meet that goal. The rest will be all tuning.