Lets talk Difs.

[estoyaqui30]

Wow, I never thought I would cause this much confusion with my question. So, TSiAWD666 what you are saying is that the inner dimensions of the inside of the 2G inner axle cups and the EVO 8 inner axle cups are the same despite the differences in axle shaft diameter and spline size/count? Okay I get it when explained that way, that is good. Like I said before, I'm not looking for "hand holding" I'm just trying to be sure that I have correct information before I take things apart 4 hours from home.

It just seems that I am getting so many different answers from so many people that I need to get it straight. The tech person at KAAZ told me to just use my complete 2G LSD axles as is. The manufacturer rep is so wrong too. Then I called Drive Shaft Shop, whose axles I'm using and they told me KAAZ is wrong, but that I can't use EVO 8 cups and gave me EVO III cups and said that they are the same spline as the EVO 8 cups and the inside is the same as the 2G LSD axle.

 

[kchaazz]

Yep, the Kaaz guy goofed, youve got to have equal length inner cups for their LSD, which is the same LSD sold for the EVOs. I believe the reason that DSS told you you couldnt use THEIR Evo 8 cups is because DSS makes their own axles from the ground up and while the overall length of their axles is the same as OE, the lengths of the individual shafts and cups are not the same as OE and therefore are not compatible with OE axles. The EVO 3- 8 cups are the same. My stuff didnt make it last weekend, but its coming today for sure, though its raining like hell here so it may be tomorrow before I start shooting pics and taking the dif apart and messing with swapping the axle cups. The guy who sold me the Evo rear and axles also lent me a 2G non LSD inner cup for the purpose of checking fitment, so I should be able to cover everything.

 

[estoyaqui30]

Yep, the Kaaz guy goofed, youve got to have equal length inner cups for their LSD, which is the same LSD sold for the EVOs. I believe the reason that DSS told you you couldnt use THEIR Evo 8 cups is because DSS makes their own axles from the ground up and while the overall length of their axles is the same as OE, the lengths of the individual shafts and cups are not the same as OE and therefore are not compatible with OE axles. The EVO 3- 8 cups are the same. My stuff didnt make it last weekend, but its coming today for sure, though its raining like hell here so it may be tomorrow before I start shooting pics and taking the dif apart and messing with swapping the axle cups. The guy who sold me the Evo rear and axles also lent me a 2G non LSD inner cup for the purpose of checking fitment, so I should be able to cover everything.

Thank you so much! That explains everything. Well at least it came out less expensive, because I had call JNZ tuning and asked about EVO 8 inner cups, Paul told me that they would be $310.00 each. I looked in eBay and all of the listings for rear axles were only selling with the diff and I didn't need the diff.

 

[kchaazz]

My stuff is here. I removed an Evo cup and checked to see if the 2g cup was the same on the inside and it is not so youd have to swap the Evo bearing tripod onto the 2g axle for the Evo cup to work on the 2g axle. Unfortunately I do not have a 2g axle to see if the Evo bearing will fit onto it but I just called a local friend and he may be able to lend me one. Stay tuned...

 

[1990AWD]

Please make that write up. I've been trying to follow as it sounds like this Evo diff would be a much better upgrade than just a 4 bolt LSD (I have an open 3bolt) but all these terms and differences are confusing to me.

 

[renovatdkitchen]

Out of curiosity, how would throwing an evo 2 or 3 tranny into the mix change things? I would assume that there are still cusco center/front diffs for them?

 

[greengoblin]

Out of curiosity, how would throwing an evo 2 or 3 tranny into the mix change things? I would assume that there are still cusco center/front diffs for them?

No it would not. That is what they where made for in the first place.

 

[greengoblin]

kachaazz Post the over all lengths of the different axle if you can.

 

[kchaazz]

I can but I need my friend to bring me one of his 2G rear axles. Ive got 1G 3 bolt LSD, 3 bolt non LSD and 4 bolt LSD axles in my posession, just no 2G stuff. I already know that 1G and 2G non LSD axles are plug and play with the EVO LSD, and that the bearing tripod and EVO inner cup can be directly swapped onto the 1G 4 bolt rear axle. People are also using the EVO inner cups on 2G axles but Im just trying to figure out what bearing tripod the 2G guys are having to use in order to get the EVO inner cup onto their LSD axle, and when my friend brings his 2G axle over, I will attempt to swap the EVO bearing tripod onto it. Ive got all the text done for the writeup, all thats left is to post photos of the parts and pages from the factory service manual for setting up the diff and setting up tooth engagement and backlash for the ring and pinion.

 

[estoyaqui30]

I can but I need my friend to bring me one of his 2G rear axles. Ive got 1G 3 bolt LSD, 3 bolt non LSD and 4 bolt LSD axles in my posession, just no 2G stuff. I already know that 1G and 2G non LSD axles are plug and play with the EVO LSD, and that the bearing tripod and EVO inner cup can be directly swapped onto the 1G 4 bolt rear axle. People are also using the EVO inner cups on 2G axles but Im just trying to figure out what bearing tripod the 2G guys are having to use in order to get the EVO inner cup onto their LSD axle, and when my friend brings his 2G axle over, I will attempt to swap the EVO bearing tripod onto it. Ive got all the text done for the writeup, all thats left is to post photos of the parts and pages from the factory service manual for setting up the diff and setting up tooth engagement and backlash for the ring and pinion.

Wow, did I open this can of worms? I hope and assume this will helpful for a lot of others too. That's where I am confused because TSiAWD666 said that he just took his 2G axles, removed the inner cups and put EVO 8 cups on and I'm assuming that he is still using the 2G bearing tripod. I was told that there was a 1mm difference in the diameter between the LDS and nod LSD shafts. If that is true, I will assume (dangerously) that the splines will be different.

 

[estoyaqui30]

TSiAWD666, what axles are you using? Obviously they are 2G, but were they LSD or non LSD? I will assume that you are having no problems, because I see that you have what appears to be a serious track car.

 

[TSiAWD666]

So I'm using:
2g LSD axle including its original tripod bearing
Evo 8 cup
2g LSD housing with evo 8 diff internally

Since June of last year. Have probably 1500 miles on it including two track weekends. No issues yet, including no odd sounds from the rear drivetrain, but... considering the short usage, who knows.

I used this setup because it's what my drivetrain builder, Tim Zimmer of TMZ Performance, recommended. However I just talked with Tim last night and he confirmed he didn't actually measure anything with the cups/bearings to see if there was anything slightly off. I too never checked anything because things seemed to fit fine and I didn't think I would need to question Tim's plans, so there is definitely the possiblity of something being off, hence me asking ACM if he was speculating or had actually confirmed things for himself.

Definitely want to hear if kchaazz looked at this exact configuration, 2g lsd tripod bearing in an evo 8 cup, and if so what the exact measurements are showing a problem.

 

[ACM]

Unfortunately I don't know the details regarding Evo 8/9 inner joints - that's why I didn't mention them, and also why I was hoping that Scott McIntyre would post about his setup, since I do know he is using Evo 8 joints.

I can only assume that Scott started out with an OEM VC LSD - since there would be no reason to change joints otherwise - so either the Evo 8 tripod fits onto the 2G LSD axle splines, or the 2G LSD tripod is a "close enough" fit into the Evo 8 cup to work.

But I don't know - I never investigated Evo 8 joints because that's not a legal change under my ruleset. So my remaining question is where the he!! has Scott gone ???

So I'm using:
2g LSD axle including its original tripod bearing
Evo 8 cup
2g LSD housing with evo 8 diff internally

Since June of last year. Have probably 1500 miles on it including two track weekends. No issues yet, including no odd sounds from the rear drivetrain, but... considering the short usage, who knows.

I used this setup because it's what my drivetrain builder, Tim Zimmer of TMZ Performance, recommended. However I just talked with Tim last night and he confirmed he didn't actually measure anything with the cups/bearings to see if there was anything slightly off. I too never checked anything because things seemed to fit fine and I didn't think I would need to question Tim's plans, so there is definitely the possiblity of something being off, hence me asking ACM if he was speculating or had actually confirmed things for himself.

Definitely want to hear if kchaazz looked at this exact configuration, 2g lsd tripod bearing in an evo 8 cup, and if so what the exact measurements are showing a problem.

 

[kchaazz]

Ive got all the axles at my house, just waiting for the friend to bring the 2G LSD axle over and I can answer this. I can say now that the 2G non lsd inner cup is way too small for the EVO tripod, so guys who have 2G LSD axles cannot simply purchase 2G non lsd cups, theyll need the complete 2G non lsd axles.
As soon as I get the 2G axle over, Ill also check to see if the overall length of the EVO axle is the same as the 2G and I will also check the opposite side of the EVO axle against the 2G to see if the size and spline count is the same and if it is, the 2G guys would be able to just use complete EVO axles and be done.

 

[greengoblin]

Ive got all the axles at my house, just waiting for the friend to bring the 2G LSD axle over and I can answer this. I can say now that the 2G non lsd inner cup is way too small for the EVO tripod, so guys who have 2G LSD axles cannot simply purchase 2G non lsd cups, theyll need the complete 2G non lsd axles.
As soon as I get the 2G axle over, Ill also check to see if the overall length of the EVO axle is the same as the 2G and I will also check the opposite side of the EVO axle against the 2G to see if the size and spline count is the same and if it is, the 2G guys would be able to just use complete EVO axles and be done.

I'm hoping they are a bit longer since I have increased my rear track width. I'm sure everyone else hopes the opposite.

 

[estoyaqui30]

Ive got all the axles at my house, just waiting for the friend to bring the 2G LSD axle over and I can answer this. I can say now that the 2G non lsd inner cup is way too small for the EVO tripod, so guys who have 2G LSD axles cannot simply purchase 2G non lsd cups, theyll need the complete 2G non lsd axles.
As soon as I get the 2G axle over, Ill also check to see if the overall length of the EVO axle is the same as the 2G and I will also check the opposite side of the EVO axle against the 2G to see if the size and spline count is the same and if it is, the 2G guys would be able to just use complete EVO axles and be done.

That would be very convenient if it turns out that the EVO axle would work. I was looking the EVO axles on the DSS website, just for the hell of it. They actually differentiate between viscus LSD and mechanical LSD....even for the EVO III to VIII. They show that the axle for the viscous LSD has the double splines on one inner cup.

 

[kchaazz]

Regarding the viscous rear LSD equipped EVOS, these were only availible on the very early EVOs, so dont sweat that info. A little update- the guy still hasnt brought me the 2G axle, and I think he's out of town now, however, I did have a guy from one of the scrap yards come into my shop for a hydraulic hose. He knows I play with DSMs and he said that a 2G was given to them to crush and it has everything on it. I told him if he could get me the axles or the complete rear subframe, Ill give him a whole car in exchange.
Also, last night, I cracked the EVO case, took the diff out, cleaned it, rearranged the plates per the FSM and put the diff back together. I took close to 40 pictures for the writeup. Tomorrow night, Im going to get into putting the EVO diff into the 1G case and will take pics as I check tooth engagement and backlash. Hopefully, I will get my hands on some 2G axles soon. Here are a few pics to check out.

 

[estoyaqui30]

I spoke to Paul at JNZ tuning today and he told me that both the EVO 8 and the 2G AWD use the same rear hub/wheel bearing assembly....as in literally the same part number, that would mean that either outer cup will fit. So I'm thinking that as long as the axle bars are the same length between the EVO 8 and the 2G DSM the EVO axles should just go right in. I called DSS, but the guy I spoke to seemed to know very little. He put me on hold a couple of times to ask someone else but never came up with an answer.

 

[lowell]

Is the ABS tooth count the same between Evo and 2G?

 

[kchaazz]

^^Good point, tooth count and placement will also need to be the same for the ABS ring (for those who want to do this swap and retain ABS), so I will check this as well. The problem is, the guy who was going to lend me the 2G axle is out of town, and the scrap guy never got back to me, so Im trying to get someone to lend me a 2G LSD axle, driver or passenger side, doesnt matter, but its difficult to find someone and its the only thing holding me back from finishing the tech writeup and answering all the questions

Update: Still no 2G axle as yet, however, I found something when I was fiddling with the diff and I feel this is EXTREMELY important for anyone who is doing this swap to know this info.
I noticed the bearing on the side gear cover of the diff was a bit loose, so I pulled on it a bit, and the bearing came RIGHT off. I noticed some bad scoring on the bearing post, caused by the inner bearing race spinning on the post and after a bit of research, I found out that this failure is very common with the EVO rear differential, and if its not fixed, it will cause the ring gear teeth to break off! I also found the solution to the problem. Look at the pics, they are from TRE's website. The wear on my cover is identical to the wear on the cover in the TRE pic. The cover on the right is a cover made in house at TRE to fix the problem so it never happens again. My cover should be getting to me in about 11 days, I think.

 

[kchaazz]

Since Im still not ready to finish the writeup until I get a 2G axle, here's a little more info for 1G people. The pic with the axle cups shows, from left, EVO inner cup, 1G 4 bolt LSD short side cup, then 1G 4 bolt LSD long side cup. In the following pics, I am measuring the tripod bearing of both the Evo and 1G 4 bolt inner side, and both are dead nuts identical. This means that 1G 4 bolt axles will accept the Evo inner cup as a direct fit without swapping the Evo tripod bearing onto the 1G axle as well (One guy has confirmed already that the EVO tripod can be swapped onto the 1G axle). Unless someone whos familiar with CV axles has anything to say about any detrimental effects of pairing the tripod "rollers" to an inner cup that that roller has not bed into, I assume it would be perfectly fine to swap the cups and go.

 

[Purple_Demon]

IF necessary I have a set of brand new 2g LSD Axles I can take measurements and pictures with. I can take the measurements tonight after work.

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And yes I did clean up my rear diff just in case anyone asks

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[kchaazz]

Sure! Do you have a set of digital calipers? If so and you measure yours the same way Ive measured mine in the pics, Ill bring my digital cals home today and we can compare measurements.

 

[NHerron]

Good info, I've been reading tid bits here and there.

I still hope there will be enough solid info somewhere in the article for the 2G guys wanting to swap open diffs for the LSD diffs (stock DSM diffs). Only info needed would be the axle dimensions of each set (2G LSD vs nonLSD) I believe

 

[Ludachris]

Just got a quote from a local who wants $850 for his rear Evo diff and axles... wow. What gives with all these price jumps? Seems like the salvage yards are driving up pricing on all used parts, which is spreading to the private party pricing.