Lets talk Difs.

[estoyaqui30]

I was reading through this entire thread and I've called all of the people that can and still not sure of the correct answer, so any help will be much appreciated. I'm running a 99 AWD and I sent my spare rear differential to sheptrans for them to install a KAAZ super Q LSD. I can't get a straight answer from anybody as far as what inner axle cups I need to use. Ray at KAAZ tells me its just bolt in....2G LSD inner cups, don't worry about the extra splines from the viscous LSD. Driveshaft shop said that they have no idea. Some people are saying use EVO 8 inner cups. If that is true, then the next question is will the EVO 8 inner cups and tripod bearings go onto the inner splines of my 2G axle shaft?

 

[NHerron]

Mike one more question, you changed out the entire differential housing with the EVO correct? Or just the guts? This guys saying just the guts...
2G Rear LSD Upgrade + Bushing Install - Club DSM Canada
What ratio is the evo8 diffs?

 

[DSMReviver]

I was reading through this entire thread and I've called all of the people that can and still not sure of the correct answer, so any help will be much appreciated. I'm running a 99 AWD and I sent my spare rear differential to sheptrans for them to install a KAAZ super Q LSD. I can't get a straight answer from anybody as far as what inner axle cups I need to use. Ray at KAAZ tells me its just bolt in....2G LSD inner cups, don't worry about the extra splines from the viscous LSD. Driveshaft shop said that they have no idea. Some people are saying use EVO 8 inner cups. If that is true, then the next question is will the EVO 8 inner cups and tripod bearings go onto the inner splines of my 2G axle shaft?

If you purchased the kaaz eclipse awd rear lsd there is no need to swap anything. Just put the lsd in and then put the axles in and that's it.

but, if you bought the evo version and you are trying to make it work in your 2g rear end, you will definitely need to use 2g non lsd rear axles.

kaaz still make rear lsd for our car...

KAAZ USA | Limited Slip Differential-Mitsubishi

Mike one more question, you changed out the entire differential housing with the EVO correct? Or just the guts? This guys saying just the guts...
2G Rear LSD Upgrade + Bushing Install - Club DSM Canada
What ratio is the evo8 diffs?

you are only using the lsd, not the gears. your dsm gears will go on so no changes in differential ratios.

 

[ACM]

I was reading through this entire thread and I've called all of the people that can and still not sure of the correct answer, so any help will be much appreciated. I'm running a 99 AWD and I sent my spare rear differential to sheptrans for them to install a KAAZ super Q LSD. I can't get a straight answer from anybody as far as what inner axle cups I need to use. Ray at KAAZ tells me its just bolt in....2G LSD inner cups, don't worry about the extra splines from the viscous LSD. Driveshaft shop said that they have no idea. Some people are saying use EVO 8 inner cups. If that is true, then the next question is will the EVO 8 inner cups and tripod bearings go onto the inner splines of my 2G axle shaft?

If your car did not have a factory rear VC LSD, you can install the Kaaz and plug your non-LSD axles in and you're done.

If your car came with a factory rear VC LSD then NEITHER of your axles will fit (safely) no matter what anyone tells you. The double spline side has to lose the second set of splines and then needs a circlip groove adding so that it locks in place, and the single spline side is about an inch short, only engages half the splines into the side gear, and the circlip will not engage. Thus either side will work its way out of the diff, leak oil, and in the case of the single spline side, the splines will shear off inside the diff after a few launches.

On to Evo 8 inner joints. Scott McIntyre used exactly this setup on his car. I'm guessing that he had the factory rear LSD, otherwise he wouldn't have needed to worry about axles at all. The problem with swapping inboard joints is that the splines are a different spec on LSD vs non-LSD axle shafts. I'm sure Scott will post the details soon. 2G non-LSD inner joints fit all the factory Evo III-IX mechanical rear LSDs.

I don't know what on earth DSMReviver is talking about - Kaaz only lists one part number for Evo and Eclipse rear diffs - SBM2031. SBM2031 is the second evolution of Kaaz rear diffs for the Evo/Eclipse, they have never had different part numbers between the Evo and Eclipse diffs, it has always been the same part.

Diff ratios :
Evo - 3.307
M/T DSM - 3.545
A/T DSM - 3.307

Therefore, if you have an A/T DSM you can change the rear cover and bolt the whole assembly straight in - you may want to check the propshaft flange bolt pattern though, just in case.

Once Scott posts his details this should become a sticky after getting cleaned up so that we don't have to keep posting the same data and having the same disagreements every time this topic comes up.

Charles

 

[DSMReviver]

ACM looks like you are 2 for 2. Good Job.

 

[NHerron]

ACM thank you for dropping by, finally some real info.

Could you clarify something? It's one of those bad cases of conflicting information everytime it gets asked.

What's the best route to take when wanting to swap out the stock DSM open diff for the stock DSM LSD diff? I currently have the BFB, wanting to swap it for the BFH.

I cannot just swap the inner axle cups correct? I'd have to swap both the P&D-side axles out for LSD axles?

Lastly, what's your opinion on the DSM LSD's? Is it true they actually wear out typically over 100k miles? I'm hoping to swap out for traction in snow, mud etc. so it's not really a performance thing.


Thanks, and yes I agree there needs to be a sticky!

 

[TSiAWD666]

If you recall I made comments on how I felt there was way too much power oversteer from what I believed to be excessive lockup torque in my time trial widebody DSM. My setup then was:
1) 285-wide Nitto NT05 street tires
2) OEM evo diff spring plates
3) Redline Heavyweight Shockproof fluid

I made some changes to the setup:
1) Adding Redline Friction Modifier, I think it was about 1/4 of a bottle? to my Redline Heavyweight Shockproof fluid
2) Switched to Nitto NT01 315-wide r-compounds tires.

How did this change things? Sweet merciful crap the rear diff is AWESOME!
1) Lower and mid speed turns I can easily throttle control my oversteer which is fantastic. I'm still able to get heavily into the throttle and power around turns in a very fast yet controllable fashion. A massive improvement.
2) Just GRIPS at high speeds. Oddly, I swear I have more grip at full WOT in high speed turns than I do at part throttle. In high speed turns with part throttle the car feels like it wants to slightly slide out the rear, but when I go WOT the rear tucks and holds the line.

Now I'm VERY happy with this diff change!

 

[kchaazz]

Wow, man, 315's? I can only dream of having that kind of rubber on my silly 1G. Any chance you might throw the 285's back on to see which change made the most improvement?

 

[TSiAWD666]

Well, I can't promise anything because I can't push it on the street to really test the diff, and if I am at the track I want my 315 rubber! haha but maybe one day I'll drive to the track on the 285s and leave them on for a session. That will be a while though as I think I won't take the car out again until the Ultimate Track Car Challenge in July, and for that one I will need my rubber on the entire time.

I guess the real take away here is that the diff when tuned for your particular setup can be made awesome Other folks may just need to get the looser spring plates from Weir, flip a few plates, or get stickier rubber, but it can be a great upgrade with the right setup.

Oh, I forgot to mention that with the addition of the friction modifier alone the chatter pretty much disappeared. Wasn't something I needed to fix but it might be of interest to some. The car now goes around parking lots fairly quietly and without the juddering in the rear

 

[kchaazz]

Ha, well I wonder what would happen if you ran 235's like me. I dont want to roll my fenders, so I might try some 245's eventually, but Im more into just having fun rather than being seriously competitive. Ive got the parts for the EVO rear coming as we speak, and Im hoping that with the meager 450whp Im hoping to generate that the car will be decently fun and still reasonably controllable with my pizza cutters

 

[TSiAWD666]

I would think you'd better off just re-ordering the plates so they are as originally designed and not increasing the plate count from 8 to 12.

 

[kchaazz]

Thats exactly how Im going to begin, just reconfiguring the plates. Weir has kits to increase the plate counts for only $180.00, so if Im unhappy with it, ill try those. I installed a Kaaz up front along with a TRE 4 spider (Im afraid of Quaife center diffs) when I did the transmission. I wanted to experiment with the Kaaz, and after talking with Kaaz, they suggested that I change the diff to 30% lockup to start, so I tried that and the car really feels so much better when cornering, almost no push, though I pretty much went through the whole suspension at the same time- RM sway bars, poly bushings throughout, and Jay racing rear active toe eliminator kit, so Im not sure if the front diff made the biggest difference or not. The car has no torque steer when I get on it in a straight line like it used to, and feels a lot more stable when braking and decellerating too. Maybe Ill set the Kaaz front to 60% at some point and see how it feels after I put the EVO rear in.

 

[estoyaqui30]

If your car did not have a factory rear VC LSD, you can install the Kaaz and plug your non-LSD axles in and you're done.

If your car came with a factory rear VC LSD then NEITHER of your axles will fit (safely) no matter what anyone tells you. The double spline side has to lose the second set of splines and then needs a circlip groove adding so that it locks in place, and the single spline side is about an inch short, only engages half the splines into the side gear, and the circlip will not engage. Thus either side will work its way out of the diff, leak oil, and in the case of the single spline side, the splines will shear off inside the diff after a few launches.

On to Evo 8 inner joints. Scott McIntyre used exactly this setup on his car. I'm guessing that he had the factory rear LSD, otherwise he wouldn't have needed to worry about axles at all. The problem with swapping inboard joints is that the splines are a different spec on LSD vs non-LSD axle shafts. I'm sure Scott will post the details soon. 2G non-LSD inner joints fit all the factory Evo III-IX mechanical rear LSDs.

I don't know what on earth DSMReviver is talking about - Kaaz only lists one part number for Evo and Eclipse rear diffs - SBM2031. SBM2031 is the second evolution of Kaaz rear diffs for the Evo/Eclipse, they have never had different part numbers between the Evo and Eclipse diffs, it has always been the same part.

Diff ratios :
Evo - 3.307
M/T DSM - 3.545
A/T DSM - 3.307

Therefore, if you have an A/T DSM you can change the rear cover and bolt the whole assembly straight in - you may want to check the propshaft flange bolt pattern though, just in case.

Once Scott posts his details this should become a sticky after getting cleaned up so that we don't have to keep posting the same data and having the same disagreements every time this topic comes up.

Charles

Thank you for shedding some light on this for me. Wow, it's turning out to be more interesting than I had planned. The car has a factory VC LSD, so obviously it has the LSD axles. Ray at KAAZ said that it's just "plug and play" well, I guess not quite. So, I guess ultimately I need to run EVO VIII inner cups. The question becomes how to connect those inner cups to the outer cups. Would you know about using EVO VIII axle bars with 2Gb DSM outer cups? I guess I will have to call Drive Shaft Shop and see what they say, or maybe they can build me a correct set of axle bars. I'm currently running their axles front and rear.

Thanks again ACM for your help

 

[estoyaqui30]

ACM,

Another thing is I just looked at the KAAZ website and you are correct, It only list the 2031 for mitsubishi AWD rear. I also just looked the the website for Drive shaft shop and worst case, they claim that can make a shaft to between any inner and outer ends. I might just have to call them on the claim.

So, just to clarify, I would need to run either EVO VIII/IX or 2G NON LSD inner cups.

Thanks again

 

[kchaazz]

Yeah the Evo or 2g non lsd inner cups. I actually have an evo diff and axles coming along with a 2g non lsd inner cup and Im going to try and cover all this stuff for everyone if I can get ahold of a complete 2g lsd axle to see what it takes to make it work.

 

[TSiAWD666]

Man the hand holding is getting insane. You use inner cups from the evo and the rest of the dsm axle. You just use a new boot, insert the cv joint from the dsm axle into the cup (with plenty of grease) and then clamp.

 

[kchaazz]

^^ This is why Im going to do a nice write up on this to eliminate all the questions. Im going to include pages from the FSM showing how the plates are to be arranged in the diff, how to shim the diff and pinion shaft to set backlash and tooth engagement pattern, and show pics of every axle configuration that will work. Ive got most of the writing done already, Im just waiting for my parts, which should arrive early next week. Ive got 3 bolt non lsd axles, 3 bolt lsd axles, four bolt lsd axles, and the guy who sold me the EVO stuff is lending me a 2G non lsd cup for my writeup. I just need to get ahold of a 2G lsd axle so I can show swapping the 2G non lsd cups and EVO cups onto these and then everyone will have access to all the info regarding the EVO rear LSD swap.

 

[NHerron]

Can you please include info on swapping the stock DSM non-lsd diff for the stock DSM LSD unit. Its info is nonexistant around here. For a 2g.

 

[kchaazz]

Well, you cant swap the stock, viscous LSD unit into the non LSD housing, it wont fit, ACM has confirmed this himself, and even if it did fit, youd still have to purchase the LSD axles and LSD diff. However, you can buy the 2G LSD rear diff in its housing, along with the LSD driver side and passenger side axles and the swap is as simple as taking out the non LSD stuff and installing the LSD rear end and axles, its a direct bolt in affair. The writeup Im working on is specifically covering the EVO LSD swap and how to make axles work with it.

 

[estoyaqui30]

Man the hand holding is getting insane. You use inner cups from the evo and the rest of the dsm axle. You just use a new boot, insert the cv joint from the dsm axle into the cup (with plenty of grease) and then clamp.

Dude, relax...I try not to ask stupid questions, but I just need to make sure that I have everything nailed down 100% before I start a project. This car is not only a DD, but my ONLY car! I can't not have it working and when I work on this I will be 3 to 4 hours away from home. There is so much conflicting information bouncing around on this.

I was told that EVO 8 or AWD Non LSD cups won't fit on the tripod bearing of the LSD axle because there is a 1mm difference in the shaft size and different splines.

I called Drive Shaft Shop and they said that they use EVO III inner cups because they will go onto the LSD tripods correctly and have the correct splines and shaft length for the diff. sold me a pair with new boots for $150.00

Thanks for your patience

 

[estoyaqui30]

^^ This is why Im going to do a nice write up on this to eliminate all the questions. Im going to include pages from the FSM showing how the plates are to be arranged in the diff, how to shim the diff and pinion shaft to set backlash and tooth engagement pattern, and show pics of every axle configuration that will work. Ive got most of the writing done already, Im just waiting for my parts, which should arrive early next week. Ive got 3 bolt non lsd axles, 3 bolt lsd axles, four bolt lsd axles, and the guy who sold me the EVO stuff is lending me a 2G non lsd cup for my writeup. I just need to get ahold of a 2G lsd axle so I can show swapping the 2G non lsd cups and EVO cups onto these and then everyone will have access to all the info regarding the EVO rear LSD swap.

Thanks, that would be really nice to have...see.

 

[TSiAWD666]

I was told that EVO 8 or AWD Non LSD cups won't fit on the tripod bearing of the LSD axle because there is a 1mm difference in the shaft size and different splines.

I called Drive Shaft Shop and they said that they use EVO III inner cups because they will go onto the LSD tripods correctly and have the correct splines and shaft length for the diff. sold me a pair with new boots for $150.00

I'm not clear what the shaft size or splines have to do with using the cups. You use the bearing that is already on the lsd shaft and insert it into the evo 8 cup. The shaft size and splines are irrelevant.

 

[kchaazz]

My Evo stuff should be getting to me just in time for a weekend install. Going to put pages from the FSM, pics of the cups and how to swap them, checking and setting backlash and tooth engagement on the ring and pinion, and rearranging the plates in the diff all in the writeup

 

[ACM]

I'm not clear what the shaft size or splines have to do with using the cups. You use the bearing that is already on the lsd shaft and insert it into the evo 8 cup. The shaft size and splines are irrelevant.

I thought I made this quite clear in my earlier post. Let's try again.

The inboard splines are different (and incompatible) between LSD and non-LSD axle shafts. Therefore LSD and non-LSD tripod-bearing-carriers cannot be swapped between the two shafts.

Further, the diameter of the individual semi-spherical bearing elements that ride on the tripod-bearing-carriers are also different diameters between LSD and non-LSD, so even if you tried, you can't interchange the those either.

It is plausibly possible that you could pull the individual bearing elements off one tripod and fit them on the other tripod - I will concede that, I didn't go that far - however then you have bearing elements that bedded in on one part now being asked to do duty on a different part, that's usually a recipe for rapid failure.

Can we PLEASE lock this thread, clean it up, and then sticky the product for prosperity.

Please ?

 

[TSiAWD666]

ACM, have you verified there is an incompatibility between the 2g LSD shafts, tripod bearings and all, and the Evo 8 inner cups, the setup that Scott Mcintyre and I are using?