JIC vs HotBits coilover shootoff

[drivemusicnow]

So here is my dilemma. I'm building a road race car, however I would like the most amount of "adaptability" as possible in my suspension setup, as I will be doing some other types of racing and street driving with the car. (lets face it, i don't have a trailor, and I'm sure I'll figure out other fun ways to beat on the car in sanctioned racing events)

I'm changing out all the suspensions bushings (ES kit, as well as looking into if whiteline offers others that ES doesn't include)

Only testing will tell, however I think the RM rear sway, and a custom triangulated front tower brace are going to give me the control/grip, and car dynamics I'm looking for.

I haven't had a chance to corner weigh/ weigh unsprung mass/ all those other fun measurements you have to do before you can figure out what spring rates you need for coilovers. So we're going to assume custom rates and valving are needed for both setups.

Option 1 (and honestly the one I'm leaning towards a little more heavily)
HotBits Race setup: $1947 Shipped
More Info: http://hotbits.org/frames.html
Includes:
46mm monotube front Struts (with canister)
40mm monotube Rear Shocks (with canister)
Coilover springs front and rear, with helper springs.
40 way adjustment, only adjusts dampening
Front Camber mount
Rear upper bearing plate
*shock Dyno plots, with custom valving if I so chose*

My opinions: I like them. From a design point of view, they're a better design. I like the fact that HotBits is heavy into rally, and builds all of thier shocks similarly, whether you have a rally setup, or a race setup, you have the same dustcovers/teflon seals/ don't have to worry about keeping them sparkling clean. I've always thought that the most intense/abusive type of racing for a suspension setup is rally, so I would kind of thing that whatever holds up to that, should hold up to anything else. They also can be revalved in Michigan, which is helpful.

Option 2
JIC Coilovers, "pre set up" however not tuned on car. (I live in IL)
From Road race: 1950+shipping
More Info: http://www.roadraceengineering.com/jicinfo.htm and
http://www.jic-magic.com/productsjic_susp_flta2.htm
15 way adjustment for compression and rebound.
Adj. Body Length Front Struts
Adj. Body Length Rear Shocks
Inverted Front Struts
Front Coil Over Springs
Rear Coil Over Springs
Spring Perch Spanner Wrench Front Camber Plates
Rear Upper Bearing Plate
Valving Adjuster Tool

My opinions: Its "tried and true" as some may say. Most of the fast DSMs are on these. Mueller is a genius in his field, and will probably know what I would need without me having to play around with them. They have adjustable shock lengths, which is cool, however I don't know how much "better" that is rather than the helper spring system that HotBits uses. I don't really like the secretiveness of not knowing what you're getting, nor do I like the fact that I have to sign a non-disclosure agreement before I am told what is being put on my own car. Also, the JICs adjust compression and rebound together, which I believe when looking for the best track setup, is not as helpful as a single adjustable setup like HotBits offers.

Option 3 (Cheaper)
I could use the HotBits street setup, (no top mounts) and order the RRE top mounts for the front for 290$ this would leave the price at ~$1660-1770 Shipped (depending on custom spring rates or not)

Opinions.. Ehh, if i'm spending this much money I might as well go all the way. Basically figure a that for the top mounts from hot bits, they're about 480, for only the front camber plates from RRE, they're about 290.


So lets go.... I want to hear your opinions about this. All I ask is that you not result to "blah blah tried and true" or "blah blah I've heard JICs have teh magic" I would really like a technical and as logical reasoning as possible. THANKS!!

 

[jtmcinder]

[Hotbits] 40 way adjustment, only adjusts dampening

Which? Rebound only? Compression only? Low or high speed?

Or is it another shock that changes compression and rebound at the same time, therefore using having one knob.

- Jtoby

 

[drivemusicnow]

"They are available in non adjustable and one way adjustable dampening with 40 positions."

The above quote is pulled from www.motorsport-dist.com which is there North American distributor, and Peter Reilly is the contact that I have been communicating with.

That is the quote that originally led me to believe that they were adjustable either compression, or rebound, however I can't find anymore information to support this. I'll ask Peter when his email is working again.

Low and High speed dampening can be changed, however it only by physically changing the valving. however, at 50$ per shock to customize your valving, I believe this to be a good price. (From what I understand, by "customize" they mean any possible combination of valving you could think of. The guy at Parker Motorsport who does it is supposedly extremely knowledgeable and can help you dial in a setup)

Sorry for the confusion.

 

[jtmcinder]

I'm sorry, but you have to take this as a bad sign. When people say the shocks are adjustable but do not specify what, in particular, is being adjusted, or when people say that high and low speed are separately adjustable but, again, fail to say if it's rebound or compression, then the odds are they are not the sort of shocks bought by the serious.

This is not a shot at you. It's a shot at the makers -- or, at least, the marketers -- of HotBits.

- Jtoby

 

[drivemusicnow]

I'm sorry, but you have to take this as a bad sign. When people say the shocks are adjustable but do not specify what, in particular, is being adjusted, or when people say that high and low speed are separately adjustable but, again, fail to say if it's rebound or compression, then the odds are they are not the sort of shocks bought by the serious.

This is not a shot at you. It's a shot at the makers -- or, at least, the marketers -- of HotBits.

- Jtoby

I guess most marketing companies don't understand shocks that well... because I've really never seen an adjustable Koni ad that explains "rebound adjustment only" nor does JICs site explain that both rebound and compression are adjusted together. Not to mention, the ability of their marketers really has no reflection on the ability of the shocks. Either way, I should have an answer by tomorrow.

I know I'm not going to find someone who's has had both systems but from those of you who have far more experience with DSM suspension setup, or one or the other of these specific kits, I'm all ears to hear your thoughts.

 

[GVR4592]

Hotbits shock dyno info

 

[LONEWOLF01]

Considering that you live in chicago i would be looking into a suspension that can survive real cold temps i heard that the jics would rust in the snow. don't forget about the weather!!!1

 

[drivemusicnow]

Okay heres an update. I'm talking to John Mueller about the JICs, and I'm also talking to Larry Parker about the HotBits.

A few key points on the Hotbits:
The adjustment is both. Rebound and compression are adjusted together, however after looking at the dyno plots, and talking to Larry Parker about this, you can obviously tell that the range of adjustment on the rebound side is 10 fold what it is on the compression side. They also have a HUGE range of adjustment.

They are also coming out with a double adjustable setup rather soon. Which to me (since its going to be a while before I finish the car anyway) is probably worth waiting for.

An Issue I had with the regular HotBits is the fact that they are linear. If I wanted to, I could have them revalved with digressive valves, and this would be the better setup for road racing.

Supposedly the double adjustable is not going to be too much more than what they are already, however you know there is going to be SOME increase in cost. Either way, If I did wait for the double adj. with digressive valves... the wallet would start to hurt. And I'd probably be around what Dennis Grant had priced his 2g kit, or more.

JTMcinder: any comments on the shock particulars?? I'm extremely interested in your opinion.

Also Trevenor (if you're reading), I know you're running the ShockTecs, however I was wondering what you thought of these two setups?

 

[Turbo Shogun]

I'm running the HotBits Street-Race setup right now and I'm pretty satisfied with it. The only problem I have with them is that I didn't get a higher spring rate for the rear. I'm running 8kg/5kg right now, I'm looking to bump the rears up to a 6k or 7k spring. Also, I need camber plates ... Strut slotting has only given me 2* of neg. camber up front.

I autocross with someone who's got a set of JIC's (Arthur Matysik), and he's usually 1-3 seconds faster than I am on the course (although he's got MUCH more experience than I do). But it doesn't keep my car from at least being faster than the occasional Elise or Carrera.

I also got them when Peter did a groupbuy for the various DSM forums, so I got them at bargain-basement prices, with that in consideration, I can only say they've surpassed my expectations.

 

[jtmcinder]

JTMcinder: any comments on the shock particulars?? I'm extremely interested in your opinion.

Love to, but I'm not a member of the board to which you linked. Can you do some cutting and pasting?

- Jtoby

 

[drivemusicnow]

Love to, but I'm not a member of the board to which you linked. Can you do some cutting and pasting?

- Jtoby

Well we dynoed the hotbits adjustable VR4 strut and as I thought they are great!
Many would not belive this but at 30" a second on the F/V curve they are 15 times more adjustable than a DMS!!!!! Also they dont lag a bit!!! Even at a meter a second....... What does this mean? Well they rock and blow JIC out of the water! (sorry guys) These shocks adjustment mech is on par with ohlins, penske, JRZ, MOTON.....etc.....

I am very very pleased with this.....!!!

More info to come......!!!

Cheers
Larry

Parker Rally Sport

1500lbs of adjustment at 30" a sec

Here are the dyno graphs.

 

[drivemusicnow]

^ The shock dyno graph doesn't come up very well due to the pixel maximum... but I think you get the idea....

 

[94Jettameowpsst]

Idk how much help this will be, but this is just my imput. I have JIC's on my 3000gt and i can honestly say...comparing to a VW which had FK coilovers and Bilstien pss9s on, the JICs are much more forgiving and make the car handle 100x better than any other car i've drove. They're worth every penny IMO.

 

[tanner261]

Could someone please host the dyno graph pictures with the full resolution?

 

[Steve Hebert]

This is the best I could do for quality -

1st graph

http://i1.tinypic.com/o09j45

2nd graph

http://i1.tinypic.com/o09kp3.jpg

I have hotbits - not on yet. I spent 6 months reading up on the various choices. I am convinced on the quality having talked to about 1/2 dozen guys running them. But also they are custom made and fit the GVR4 perfectly.

 

[LONEWOLF01]

Man guys this was a good read i am not really into road raceing a 1g dsm but the hotbits sound like a great buy i may pick some up for my daily driver. i felt since the evo and wrx came out that the 1g could not compete.at the track. plus the fact the suspension can survive in the cold and heat. i heard the jics would rust to hell in inclment weather.

 

[tstkl]

I'm running the HotBits Street-Race setup right now and I'm pretty satisfied with it. The only problem I have with them is that I didn't get a higher spring rate for the rear. I'm running 8kg/5kg right now, I'm looking to bump the rears up to a 6k or 7k spring. Also, I need camber plates ... Strut slotting has only given me 2* of neg. camber up front.

I autocross with someone who's got a set of JIC's (Arthur Matysik), and he's usually 1-3 seconds faster than I am on the course (although he's got MUCH more experience than I do). But it doesn't keep my car from at least being faster than the occasional Elise or Carrera.

I also got them when Peter did a groupbuy for the various DSM forums, so I got them at bargain-basement prices, with that in consideration, I can only say they've surpassed my expectations.

next time you go autocrossing with your friend, would you mind swapping cars for him to eliminate the aspect of drivers skill, I know that the time on one autocross corse can not determine which is better, but it will give us a little insight on to which one would be better. I have been looking at the jic for a while and wouldn't want such an expensive purchase to be inferior to something for the same price. Btw I haven't seen hotbit's suspension listed on any of the vendors online, where are you seeing them, and how much are they.

I would also like to add that the jic's come with camber plates in the front, so thats another reason for me to lean in that direction. Too bad it looks like my tires are what are holding me back the most, so it would make more sense to replace those first. I might go with suspension anyways, since its less of a wear and tear item (yes shocks wear down, but not as fast as tires) and will hopefully hold my tires to the ground more. Thats my major problem, flying off the road.

 

[drivemusicnow]

next time you go autocrossing with your friend, would you mind swapping cars for him to eliminate the aspect of drivers skill, I know that the time on one autocross corse can not determine which is better, but it will give us a little insight on to which one would be better. I have been looking at the jic for a while and wouldn't want such an expensive purchase to be inferior to something for the same price. Btw I haven't seen hotbit's suspension listed on any of the vendors online, where are you seeing them, and how much are they.

I would also like to add that the jic's come with camber plates in the front, so thats another reason for me to lean in that direction. Too bad it looks like my tires are what are holding me back the most, so it would make more sense to replace those first. I might go with suspension anyways, since its less of a wear and tear item (yes shocks wear down, but not as fast as tires) and will hopefully hold my tires to the ground more. Thats my major problem, flying off the road.

The HotBits come with camber plates in the front and pillowball mounts in the back, like JICs. This is on the "race" setup, which is priced similarly to the JICs. HotBits is actually a sponsor of this site, however if you go to the link I put in the third post, Both Peter O'Reily and Larry Parker can help you out with the Hotbits setup, and Larry is in MI. He can also do any custom valving (I might suggest asking for digressive valving) and whatever spring rates you want, which would be approx 300$ more. (IIRC)

As far as your car, I would probably suggest the Tires first. Maybe buy a set of R-comps on an extra set of wheels and play around with them before you decide to spend 2 grand on coilovers.

 

[Turbo Shogun]

i heard the jics would rust to hell in inclment weather.

This may sound a bit premature, but I'm getting a bit of surface rust on mine (hotbits) ... Right where the mounting ears are welded onto the shock body.

I'm going to fix it with some rust reverter, but It'd be wise not to drive it around in winter anymore ...

 

[Turbo Shogun]

next time you go autocrossing with your friend, would you mind swapping cars for him to eliminate the aspect of drivers skill, I know that the time on one autocross corse can not determine which is better, but it will give us a little insight on to which one would be better.

That's not going to happen for awhile, unfortunately ... I will ask whenever I can get the car back on the road.

 

[3literpwr]

I am the US rebuild/tuning center for HOTBITs and those Dyno plots are from some of my test parts... The HB parts are avalible in both single ad double adjustable... The singles do adjust both comp and rebound, but bump is smaller do to the piston having greater fluid flow in compresion so there is less fluid to meter... The doubles are quite nice and the adjuster for comp is on the canister... They are rebuildable and such and can be done so
from my office in the Metro Detroit are... Yes some curves are linear, and trust me I am a big pusher of digressive valve curves!! HB does offer a number of pistons that can create
different curves... Well I have not dynoed any of JM's parts (So his could be much better than the parts I have played with) but some factory JIC that i dynoed where very inconsistant and only made about as much force as some stock KYB's... So i cant really comment much more on the JIC parts....The HB's are good parts and the dbl's can be had for around 2k with mounts and dbl springs... So I guess its up to what you want to do in the end... And yes they are pretty much the same parts as whats on my rally car...

Regards
Larry Parker

 

[LONEWOLF01]

hopefully the rusting is not to bad i may pick up the hotbits suspension myself i love the pics of the vr4 espcially the custom lower control arm. even though my car is a daily driven street car i just want the best suspension for it. right now i am going with the kyb and megan springs 250 total and they will have to do after i finish my first street racecar.
the hotbits was made for rally i think they can hold up to some abusive weather i hope the rusting was a rare case.

 

[steel_3d]

Any more input on these setups?

Are helper springs something you want on a track suspension at all? Seems like they would hurt turn-in.

 

[drivemusicnow]

Any more input on these setups?

Are helper springs something you want on a track suspension at all? Seems like they would hurt turn-in.

Helper springs really only come into play when going over a large "pothole" or other place where your suspension is going to extend fairly far. otherwise they will stay completely compressed, and let the actual spring do it's job.

 

[steel_3d]

Got it, thanks. Is there a serious disadvantage to not running them on the street? I know most coilovers don't offer them. It seems like they'd be more useful in rallying where you get crazy extension.

And a couple more stupid questions, while we're at it...

How useful is the canister option? Would you actually lose travel without them? Do you NEED that much travel on the road or for autocross, or is this another feature most useful for rallying?

How useful is the double-adjustable option? It seems the single adjustment has much more effect on rebound, which seems to be what's desirable.